Gay wedding cakes & discrimination

[JayQueer]

There was an incident in the news a few weeks ago about a "Christian" bakery in Iowa refusing to create a wedding cake for a lesbian couple getting legally married in Iowa. In another incident a year or two ago in Indianapolis, another bakery called "Just cookies" refused to fill an order for the LGBT club of a local university who wanted "rainbow themed" treats.

Since I love desserts and I have a major sweet tooth, I was wondering about the legality of refusing a customer service. Is it legal for a so-called "Christian" bakery, or any business for that matter, to deny customer service to an openly gay person?

In other words, can a gay customer take legal action against a business that refuses him or her customer service because the owner is a "Christian" who does "not agree with the gay lifestyle?"

To play devils advocate, if a right-wing customer like Maggie Gallagher comes into your gay-owned bakery shop (because you happen to be known for being the best bakery in town), and she requests a giant "Birthday cake for NOM," and she wants you to write icing on the cake saying "Happy Anniversary NOM -- Marriage is only between one man & one woman," do you have the right to deny her service, and ask her to take her business elsewhere?

I was just wondering about this issue because this whole thing about "gays forcing Christians to accept same-sex marriages & weddings" is an often repeated theme on right-wing blogs and websites, as well as in campaigns to ban gay marriage.

So I was hoping we could have a discussion about what the legality of refusing a customer service.

 

[blackbeltninja]

I don't think anyone is legally obliged to serve anyone.

Pretty sure "Right of admission reserved" means a proprieter needs very little excuse to deny you entry or service. The store is private property after all, so they don't need much of a reason to tell you to bugger off (see what I did there?). I assume it's the same with serving.

Not saying it's right, but I suppose there has to be some protection for the store owner in all this.

-d-

 

[Soilwork]

They can refuse service to anyone. Like it or not.

We also can make it public that they did.

 

[pat grimshaw]

I don't think anyone is legally obliged to serve anyone.

Pretty sure "Right of admission reserved" means a proprieter needs very little excuse to deny you entry or service. ...

Yes, exactly!

Small businesses like this are vital to our economies. Governments shouldn't be imposing their fancy, trendy ideologies onto ordinary working citizens.

 

[jensu846]

ya, i think they can refuse. I remember reading in numerous businesses a sign that says somthing like, "We have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason".
Unfortunately, the business owner can deny to serve them, but they might feel some backlash in their community. (hopefully).

 

[star-warrior]

I agree with the previous posters, any business can refuse service for very little reason. I've pointedly refused serving some assholes for the racist shit they given me in the past, but I had the luxury of having been part of a family business rather than working for someone else.

The only thing I can suggest is find out who has great baking skills, and also sugarcraft. If you want great cakes, start with the folks you know, and keep your money within friendly stores or get services from private individuals who don't have the log in their eye.

 

[rareboy]

It isn't a public service.

I decline to provide service to prospective clients for a number of reasons.

In this case, it isn't only a product that the person is making, they are selling the service to make it.

But I'd love to see the answers from everyone here if someone was saying the store refused to serve a black person. Or Jew. Or Chinese. Or Christian.

That case would be in the courts in double time flat.

 

[FanofFiction]

They reserve the right to deny serving anyone, for any reason... which I don't agree with. But if you applied for a job there, fit the qualificiations, are the most suitable, and do not get the job... if you could prove it was because you are a minority, then you can make it a legal matter.

 

[MisterMajestic]

I was just wondering about this issue because this whole thing about "gays forcing Christians to accept same-sex marriages & weddings" is an often repeated theme on right-wing blogs and websites, as well as in campaigns to ban gay marriage..

Is the Gay Rights movement about opening "Christian" eyes to tolerance or opening the "eyes" of ALL citizens? There are MILLIONS of non-Christians in the USA that don't know how to spell "Church" and are against Gay Rights...

We all know that you are a PROUD Gay-Conservative Republican. Since you brought up the issue, how do you deal with Right-Wing blog and website users that ASSUME The Gay Rights movement main focus is winning over Christians? Do you argue the Scope of the Gay Rights Movement or do you hide your Rainbow Choir Robe and shout "hallelujer" right along with your fellow Conservative brothers & sisters?

Are you one of the "Yes Men" Gay-Conservatives that try to fit in with your fellow Straight-Consevatives or do you take a stand when "Gay Rights" is brought into the conversation?

In other words, can a Gay customer take legal action against a business that refuses him or her customer service because the owner is a "Christian" who does "not agree with the gay lifestyle?".

1. The answer is NO legal action can be taken.....If a "Christian" business owner refuses to do a "Gay Themed cake" because it is against his/hor beliefs then it is his right to suggest another type of cake or turn down the business..


2. If a "Christian" business owner refuses to do an "African-Kwanzaa holiday Themed cake" because it is against his/hor beliefs then it is his right to suggest another type of cake or turn down the business..


3. If a "Christian" business owner refuses to do a "Jewish Bar Mitzvah Themed cake" because it is against his/her beliefs then it is his right to suggest another type of cake or turn down the business..


4. If a "Christian" business owner refuses to do a "Satan Worshiper's Theme cake" because it is against his/her beliefs then it is his right to suggest another type of cake or turn down the business.


An American Consumer cannot FORCE a business owner to sell a product of HIS choosing. You simply go to another business that will sell or make what you want.

 

[quasar]

Here in the UK, you would be able to take them to court for discrimination - providing that you can prove the service was declined because of your sexuality, and not because they were too busy or they felt your design was beyond their capabilities!

Owning your own business in the UK does not give you permission to choose who you do business with - as much as it might irritate. If I owned a cake shop and Fred Phelps came in for a dozen of my 'Rainbow Cream Puffs' - I'd have to sell them to him (and then contact Immigration as he's banned from entering the UK)

 

[wundersteve]

Here in British Columbia, there could be legal action against the business owners under the BC Human Rights Code. In the case here, Christian owners of a bed and breakfast turned down a gay couple who wanted to book a room there.

http://www.straight.com/article-296896/vancouver/conflict-over-bb-rights

Some circumstances can be complicated but in general businesses do not have a right to discriminate against an entire class of people.

 

[chrisrobin]

Has the Civil Rights Act of 1964 been repealed? Contained within is a clause stating that refusal to access a public accommodation is against Federal law.

If the world were a real place, one could just try a different bakery. Or... one might want to consider ordering a "conventional" cake and furnishing same gender plastic figures for your cake. That's probably too easy when you can piss and moan about something here.

 

[JayQueer]

While I despise what they did and I think it's wrong, you're right. They have a right to refuse service, and people have a right to know about their bias and bigotry.

I don't know why I'm posting in this thread. JQ rarely replies to most people here asking valid questions (especially those by MrMajestic).

Okay so I will share what I think.

I agree that it is legal for a "Christian" bakery to decline baking a wedding cake for a gay couple, because it against his or her "Christian beliefs." However, they cannot completely refuse customer service to a person simply because he is gay. So for example, they would need to make it clear that while they would not be able to bake a gay wedding cake or sell anything with a "gay theme," they would still be willing to serve the customer by selling him another product or service that they would offer other customers (such as a batch of regular cookies, or a birthday cake, or a plain cake).

For bed & breakfast owners who are "Christians" that "don't agree with the gay lifestyle," I believe they are able to decline hosting a gay wedding ceremony, and they would be legally able to decline renting a single bedroom to a gay couple. However, they would still need to provide some kind of service to gay people -- meaning that they would have to at least offer renting two separate bedrooms to a gay couple that approached them.

Basically, I believe that private businesses have the legal right to decline taking part of gay weddings or gay-themed events, but they still have to provide some kind of customer service to a gay person that they would otherwise offer to a straight person. If a business completely refuses to serve an openly gay person at all, that business could be sued -- particularly in areas or jurisdictions where sexual orientation is a protected category from discrimination.

 

[ravenstar]

So I have a question, what exactly differentiates a Gay wedding cake from a straight wedding cake. Unless the people ordering it were asking for the cake to depict lesbian sex I don't see the problem. Surely a cake to celebrate a same-sex wedding would be the same as a hetrosexual couple wouldn't it? It just has 2 brides on top instead of a bride and groom.

Business must be booming for them if they're turning away paying customers.

 

[pat grimshaw]

So I have a question, what exactly differentiates a Gay wedding cake from a straight wedding cake. ….

This thing

.
The cake shop owner would have to get some pliers to cut the hand off and then they'd have to discard the plastic woman and but a second plastic man.

 

[LilBit]

^Google gave me over 65,000 results for gay wedding cake toppers.

 

[ravenstar]

This thing

.
The cake shop owner would have to get some pliers to cut the hand off and then they'd have to discard the plastic woman and buy a second plastic man.

Yeah I get that, but they don't have to order one of those awful plastic things. They could have one custom made like friends of mine did.

 

[pat grimshaw]

…a right-wing customer like Maggie Gallagher comes into your gay-owned bakery shop (because you happen to be known for being the best bakery in town), and she requests a giant "Birthday cake for NOM," and she wants you to write icing on the cake saying "Happy Anniversary NOM -- Marriage is only between one man & one woman," do you have the right to deny her service, and ask her to take her business elsewhere…

I've been refused service plenty of times. In fact, I'd now refuse serve myself as I was at age 20 wearing grubby cut-offs, rubber thongs and scruffy face.

 

[rareboy]

I've been refused service plenty of times.

Why doesn't this surprise us somehow?

 

[pat grimshaw]

I've noticed how the Americans in this thread seem to be supporting the small shop-owner. It was a different case in Britain with the litigious gay activist and the put-upon Christian BnB owner.