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Gays set to legally marry in the UK

Was just atlkign about this is another thread. Exciting news. No more civil partnerships....but marriage :)
 
Even the Pope himself couldn't stop Canada. I hope the legislation goes through in the UK.
 
Erm. No. What they're doing is allowing civil partnership ceremonies to be held in churches.

What they're saying is that it would be a good opportunity to reform the Marriage Act to allow marriage between LGBT couples.

The problem then arises (as in the States) that you have the precedent of a government dictating the laws of a religion (which is partly what pisses religions off) - and this is what people seem to be unable to get their heads around in order to arrive at a solution...
 
I just struggle to have hope when the conservative party is in power, and i think they'll win the next election too.

The face may have changed but underneath are still a lot of MP's from the 80's and 90's.
 
If this happens I'm going to work on getting British citizenship faster! (my dad has it) The UK is close enough to Europe, is a part of the EU, and you guys speak English! Also the vast majority of guys who seem to be into me are from there so why not move there!
 
Erm. No. What they're doing is allowing civil partnership ceremonies to be held in churches.

What they're saying is that it would be a good opportunity to reform the Marriage Act to allow marriage between LGBT couples.

The problem then arises (as in the States) that you have the precedent of a government dictating the laws of a religion (which is partly what pisses religions off) - and this is what people seem to be unable to get their heads around in order to arrive at a solution...

In Canada it was simple enough to allow churches to perform equal weddings without compelling them to.

By way of comparison, there is nothing in Canadian law forbidding the Catholic church from performing a wedding for two divorced people. Neither is their anything compelling them to.

Why wouldn't that work in the UK too?
 
I just struggle to have hope when the conservative party is in power, and i think they'll win the next election too.

The face may have changed but underneath are still a lot of MP's from the 80's and 90's.

David Cameroon is a supporter of marriage equality I know
 
Erm. No. What they're doing is allowing civil partnership ceremonies to be held in churches.

Quite. The present Civil Partnership system for same sex couples differs from marriage in two respects:

  • It's not called marriage.
  • It cannot contain a religious element and the ceremonies cannot take place in church.
What the government is apparently proposing to do is allow civil partnership ceremonies to be held in church. It's not proposing to compel churches to hold the ceremonies and the Church of England for one has already said that it will not allow its churches to be used. The Quakers and some non-conformist synagogues are the only religions who appear to support the change.

This change, if it's ever actually enacted, will make little practical difference. Just as, at the moment, there's little practical difference between marriage and civil partnerships. Sure, the purists will say that any difference is discrimination, but what we have now is a huge improvement on the nothing we had before and is enough for most people.

I'd put this down to political grandstanding by one or two members of the government.
 
Personally, I think the solution is to end state recognition of religious marriages and force everyone to have a civil ceremony if they want the legal benefits.

Strange no-one ever seems to take me up on that. Well, except the French, who did it a hundred years ago
 
^ This could also be the way forward for the US. Everyone would have a civil 'marriage' (with a small 'm'), and those that wish to have an additional religious Marriage (with a large 'M') can do so.

However, the entitlement of rights would come with the civil marriage not the religious marriage. This way, religious gays can be free to campaign within their respective churches without involving non-religious campaigners in a battle that frankly can never be won unless the numerous religions are prepared to re-write their doctrines - and that isn't about to happen!

Let's not forget that until about 120 A.D. all marriages were 'civil marriages' until the Catholic church hijacked it so that it could further control the populous.
 
- I'm sure that there are plenty of opposite sex couples that want the government to recognize their marriage as marriage.

- churches that want to perform same sex marriage should be allowed to perform same sex marriage.

- no solution will make everyone happy. We need to push for the same rights under the same name: marriage.
 
In some ways I think it would be easier to enact in the US (from a legal standpoint, it would certainly be harder from a social one) than it would over here. A case could easily be made that granting legal benefits to those willing to perform a religious service is already illegal under the first amendment.

Doing the same thing in the UK would require at least the partial disestablishment of the CoE. Not that I think that would be a bad thing, but you'll never get the bishops in the HoL to agree
 
Why are UK civil partnerships not allowed to be held in a church or have a religious element? I can understand churches, etc., not being *compelled* to perform them, but is the UK gov't still that tied up with the CoE?
 
But in the US, a marriage doesn't *have* to have anything to do with religion. You can have a wedding in a church, but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans, legally, unless you've completed the legal paperwork. Yes, it has to be "solemnized," but you can just go to a courthouse and have a Justice of the Peace do it. In some places, I don't think it even has to be a JoP - you can get a sheriff or something to do it.

Seems like in the UK, marriage is legally tied up w/ religion.
 
I have another question for the UK peeps.

Why is it that every time I read an article in a UK newspaper online, the word gay is always in quotation marks? They also put quotation marks around words like marriage, wed, or marry when it's in reference to a gay couple. It seems very dismissive to me.
 
Which is why the civil marriage route has to be the one to push for not a religious Marriage.


see my first point. no matter what, we will end up with marriage, whether the government recognizes the word marriage or not. They currently do, so in order for us to be treated the same, we must push for that.
 
Why are UK civil partnerships not allowed to be held in a church or have a religious element? I can understand churches, etc., not being *compelled* to perform them, but is the UK gov't still that tied up with the CoE?

To take your points one at a time...

1) The CoE is still an established church. The 26 most senior bishops (Canterbury, York, London, Durham and Winchester; and the 21 longest-serving Diocesan bishops not including those five) get an automatic seat in the House of Lords; and it's not uncommon for retired bishops to be given a life peerage so they can continue to it after retirement. In terms of absolute numbers they're a small minority, but their influence is sufficiently strong that it's hard to get a bill through the HoL if the Lords Spiritual are vehemently opposed to it.

There is a mechanism by which the Commons can use the Parliament Acts to force a bill into law despite the opposition of the Lords, but it's regarded as something of a "nuclear option" and has only been employed seven times since it was first enacted in 1911.

As a result, the act which created Civil Partnerships in the UK was stripped of all terminology which might be construed as being religiously loaded, including the word "marriage", and prevented the service itself from taking place on religious premises. This last restriction was removed by the Equality Act last year, but the provision which removed it does not come into force unless the Home Secretary makes an order allowing it. She is now looking into whether or not this is the right time to do so.

it is worth pointing out two additional things here: (a) even if this is allowed, the service will still have to be performed by a civil registrar rather than a priest, and (b) once the actual service is over, the only legal difference between a CP and marriage is that you can't directly cite adultery as grounds for divorce. In all other circumstances the law requires them to be treated exactly the same. I'd still prefer it to be called marriage, but from the point of view of legal rights, the battle is 99% won.

2) This may be the case, but the impression I get is that civil marriage in the US is regarded as "second class" by a lot of the population, and that most of the opposition to gay marriage comes from the churches, even though no-one is proposing forcing the church to perform any service it doesn't want to. Which is why I propose ending state recognition of religious marriages: once that occurs, the legal distinction between marriage and a civil union would completely evaporate and there would no longer be a "religious" barrier to allowing gay marriage.

3) You're probably reading the Daily Mail, which is even further to the right than Faux News. I've never seen any other mainstream UK paper put scare quotes around the word 'gay'. See this post.
 
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