Gender fluidity

[G-Lexington]

I have trouble understanding, but I don't have any trouble accepting.

I've never really been able to define what about me is inherently "male". Certainly it's more than the dangling bits between my legs, and I certainly don't feel being gay, or bottoming, somehow negates anything male about me. Being male is just such a completely subsumed part of who I am that I can't even define what it is about me that IS (genderly-speaking) male.

But as I said above, I understand what it's like to have something "not fit". It's a very small thing in my case, and it isn't that big a deal overall. But even given that, it was strange how "changing my name" helped. It was like taking that tiny stone out of your shoe after walking on it for hours. Yeah, I might have gotten used to it, but once it was finally gone, I realized how much more comfortable I was.

Trans folk seem to have something bigger than a tiny stone in their shoe. It's a large sharp rock, or a knife. It's not something they can easily suck up and continue on with. And unlike a stone in the shoe, it's not obvious what the problem is, necessarily. My three closest MtF friends all came to the realization in their 30s. It wasn't like they lived their whole lives thinking "I shouldn't have a penis" - it didn't work like that. It was something far more intangible that something overall was amiss. And it wasn't until they realized that they were trans, and they began their transition, that they truly realized how big and sharp that stone in their shoe was. And what a relief it was to finally start being free of it.

Lex

 

[mikey3000]

But is transgender the same as gender fluidity? Transgender is to move from one to the other whereas fluidity means to move back and forth, to and fro, no?

 

[G-Lexington]

They're similar, I think. For trans, it's more "I was born in a body with THIS gender, but I'm THAT gender." With gender fluid, it's "I was born with THIS gender, but there are times when I feel I'm THAT gender." And I think, especially in the past, this took a lot longer for them to figure out. (I'm on a bit shakier ground here, as I don't know any gender-fluid people except online.)

One analogy I can think of is Tom Robinson. In the late 1970s, he was one of the first out-and-proud rock singers. He recorded the anthem "Glad to Be Gay", at a time when that was a brave-as-hell stance to take. And then, many years later, he met, fell in love, and married...a woman. As he said, "nobody was more surprised than I was". Despite being certain he was gay, he found out he w actually bisexual.

And I think, especially in the past, this is similar to how gender-fluid people came to that realization. They at first thought "oh, I must be trans", and they may or may not have done any actual transitioning. But then later, they felt more cis-gendered. Most likely in that "hard-to-pin-down" way that I feel about my name. And I'm sure that was just as big a shock to them as it was to anybody.

Nowadays, with "gender-fluid" being a somewhat more common term, I'm guessing more people are recognizing it earlier. And yeah, some people are jumping on the train a bit quickly. My friend's daughter has announced to hin that she's a lesbian, then a FtM, then gender-fluid, all in the same month...to which his response to each was "actually, I think you're eleven". And yeah, I'm sure a few other people make that leap a bit quick. But I don't think that means everybody who does is just "confused" or "flighty". It's still not exactly well-accepted, as many posts in this thread suggest. So if somebody has the firtitude to say they are, I'd take that at face value. I'd say "just tell me what you want me to call you". Because, y'know, I've been there.

Lex

 

[Kulindahr]

They're similar, I think. For trans, it's more "I was born in a body with THIS gender, but I'm THAT gender." With gender fluid, it's "I was born with THIS gender, but there are times when I feel I'm THAT gender." And I think, especially in the past, this took a lot longer for them to figure out. (I'm on a bit shakier ground here, as I don't know any gender-fluid people except online.)

One analogy I can think of is Tom Robinson. In the late 1970s, he was one of the first out-and-proud rock singers. He recorded the anthem "Glad to Be Gay", at a time when that was a brave-as-hell stance to take. And then, many years later, he met, fell in love, and married...a woman. As he said, "nobody was more surprised than I was". Despite being certain he was gay, he found out he w actually bisexual.

And I think, especially in the past, this is similar to how gender-fluid people came to that realization. They at first thought "oh, I must be trans", and they may or may not have done any actual transitioning. But then later, they felt more cis-gendered. Most likely in that "hard-to-pin-down" way that I feel about my name. And I'm sure that was just as big a shock to them as it was to anybody.

Nowadays, with "gender-fluid" being a somewhat more common term, I'm guessing more people are recognizing it earlier. And yeah, some people are jumping on the train a bit quickly. My friend's daughter has announced to hin that she's a lesbian, then a FtM, then gender-fluid, all in the same month...to which his response to each was "actually, I think you're eleven". And yeah, I'm sure a few other people make that leap a bit quick. But I don't think that means everybody who does is just "confused" or "flighty". It's still not exactly well-accepted, as many posts in this thread suggest. So if somebody has the firtitude to say they are, I'd take that at face value. I'd say "just tell me what you want me to call you". Because, y'know, I've been there.

Lex

According to a doc I saw about coming-out issues, my situation where attraction, both physical and romantic, changes with the seasons is more common than I would have ever guessed. That's a real fluidity, and to say it's a total pain is an understatement of cosmic proportions. He's the one who showed me cases where people's attractions can change with time, among other patterns.

And yes, that's different than "I was born in a body with THIS gender, but I'm THAT gender", although apparently it's also possible to be fine with the gender with which you were born for years but then undergo a shift.

 

[Latimer]

Nowadays, with "gender-fluid" being a somewhat more common term, I'm guessing more people are recognizing it earlier. And yeah, some people are jumping on the train a bit quickly. My friend's daughter has announced to hin that she's a lesbian, then a FtM, then gender-fluid, all in the same month...to which his response to each was "actually, I think you're eleven". And yeah, I'm sure a few other people make that leap a bit quick. But I don't think that means everybody who does is just "confused" or "flighty". It's still not exactly well-accepted, as many posts in this thread suggest. So if somebody has the firtitude to say they are, I'd take that at face value. I'd say "just tell me what you want me to call you". Because, y'know, I've been there.
Lex

Mass hysteria?

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/mass_delusions_and_hysterias_highlights_from_the_past_millennium

 

[Latimer]

^
It's worth considering that Gender Fluidity may be this decade's Recovered Memory, another mass phenomenon, and since discredited. And just as in the case of Recovered Memory, a good deal of damage may be done before it has run its course.

Donald Trump may have been one of the beneficiaries of the damage. As has been pointed out, while Mrs. Clinton was talking restrooms, Mr. Trump was talking jobs.

http://thefederalist.com/2016/11/17...mass-hysteria-similar-1980s-era-junk-science/

 

[luckynumbah7]

^
It's worth considering

You type that as if it were actually a mentally competent thing to ponder. Haven't looked into any history, have you? No, don't bother to respond, I already know the answer to that one. It's "No, I haven't read a damn thing that doesn't already agree with my assumptions and I'm not going to."

 

[luckynumbah7]

You type that as if it were actually a mentally competent thing to ponder. Haven't looked into any history, have you? No, don't bother to respond, I already know the answer to that one. It's "No, I haven't read a damn thing that doesn't already agree with my assumptions and I'm not going to."

The article you linked also doesn't seem to be starting or continuing "the philosophical underpinnings of the day's debate". So in that vein, lemmie help you along;

How do you have a mass delusion that seems to span both culture and time while your 'nod & a wink' trying to equate it with the sra bullshit, which by its nature is 'brief'? You can prove memory both mutable & fallible; It's absurdly simple to showcase. While you cannot prove or disprove gendered feelings. Yours or anyone else's. So; if you'd like to prove one thing is real and not another, prove you're a man. And your dick isn't gonna cut it, because that's just a bunch of emotions and outside value (ohgod, making myself wheeze with laughter o'er here) attached to a piece of meat.

 

[Latimer]

^^^^^^^

No, don't bother to respond.

 

[pat grimshaw]

...y'know, I've been there.

Lex, were you gender "fluid" too?

I assume you have stopped being fluid now. You have stopped flowing.

 

[frankfrank]

my situation where attraction, both physical and romantic, changes with the seasons is more common than I would have ever guessed.

people's attractions can change with time, among other patterns.

And yes, that's different than "I was born in a body with THIS gender, but I'm THAT gender"

Your fluidity doesn't change the fact that you still think of yourself as a male, and that you live your life as a male, and THAT doesn't change around. We've spent enough time visiting together that, if that was true, I would think I would have seen some hint of "behavior flip-flopping" by now, or you would have talked about it, or something.

The two MtoF transgendered people I know, right here in town, constantly live their lives as women. The fact that they have penises, doesn't change that in their day-to-day lives.

I have never known anybody (and I doubt I ever will) who, as part of living their day to day life, "feels like a woman today, but might feel like a man tomorrow." Or, "I feel like a woman today, so I'll use the women's bathroom." That's a myth promoted by the naysayers and the haters, and nothing more.

 

[pat grimshaw]

...I have never known anybody (and I doubt I ever will) ...

And you won't.

Because this "fluid" fad is a "trending-fad" for millennial teenagers who will soon find a new fad.