bankside
JUB 10k Club
You need constructive advice. You are getting constructive advice. What you want is complicit yes-men to stoke your ego and help you convince your boyfriend to ignore his own better judgement.
HAHAHA! Not a chance in hell!
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Going from monogamous to polyamorous...
- Thread starter saymyname
- Start date
You need constructive advice. You are getting constructive advice. What you want is complicit yes-men to stoke your ego and help you convince your boyfriend to ignore his own better judgement.
HAHAHA! Not a chance in hell!
Okay, the last post I wrote (before my response to Kyanimal), I was still writing while a bunch of other responses were being wrote at the same time. So no, I did not tell a moderator to fuck off. Actually, I quite like his (tallguy) advice, and I think in my response that comes after it, where I clarify my position to Lex, some of his concerns (compromise) are addressed too. I never said "NO, BOYFRIEND. BOTTOMING MORE WON'T HELP" or that one-night stands only isn't an option, just that it's not exactly what I had in mind or that I'm not sure if him bottoming more would solve everything.
The other pieces of advice WEREN'T constructive, sorry if that's a blow to your advice-giver ego to hear that someone who's looking for guidance on how to open things up doesn't want to hear "IT'S OVER, YOU'RE DOOMED, BREAK UP!" There's a difference between telling someone to be cautious and telling them to break up. That's not constructive. And please stop assuming that because we're young we don't have a happy, mature relationship. Clearly it's a lot happier and more mature than most people's considering most guys wouldn't even talk about it and would just cheat or break up upon an open proposal, whereas with my guy it's been a possibility from the start.
I love him for who he is and he loves me for who I am, and he's always known I've been a horny motherfucker so this isn't a giant surprise, the question is how to negotiate it and reach a middle ground. He said he'd be "uncomfortable" if I just went all out and did what I want (fuck buddy with whoever) and that he doesn't think it's a jealousy issue to not want your guy to fuck someone else. So maybe I'll settle for the tricking thing, but I still can't help but feel like he's controlling me. Especially in this situation because there's this one boy I really just want to fuck a few times, and he won't let me since "we both know him." But I guess if he went and fucked with someone we both know that's more of my friend, I'd feel awkward too. I don't know. We're going to talk about it soon and we'll see. But until then, please, by all means, offer constructive advice or, of course, tell me we're just going to break up because that's really reinforcing to good to hear, especially when it's not going to happen and when I never introduced the topic in a way that was make or break kind of situation.
The other pieces of advice WEREN'T constructive, sorry if that's a blow to your advice-giver ego to hear that someone who's looking for guidance on how to open things up doesn't want to hear "IT'S OVER, YOU'RE DOOMED, BREAK UP!" There's a difference between telling someone to be cautious and telling them to break up. That's not constructive. And please stop assuming that because we're young we don't have a happy, mature relationship. Clearly it's a lot happier and more mature than most people's considering most guys wouldn't even talk about it and would just cheat or break up upon an open proposal, whereas with my guy it's been a possibility from the start.
I love him for who he is and he loves me for who I am, and he's always known I've been a horny motherfucker so this isn't a giant surprise, the question is how to negotiate it and reach a middle ground. He said he'd be "uncomfortable" if I just went all out and did what I want (fuck buddy with whoever) and that he doesn't think it's a jealousy issue to not want your guy to fuck someone else. So maybe I'll settle for the tricking thing, but I still can't help but feel like he's controlling me. Especially in this situation because there's this one boy I really just want to fuck a few times, and he won't let me since "we both know him." But I guess if he went and fucked with someone we both know that's more of my friend, I'd feel awkward too. I don't know. We're going to talk about it soon and we'll see. But until then, please, by all means, offer constructive advice or, of course, tell me we're just going to break up because that's really reinforcing to good to hear, especially when it's not going to happen and when I never introduced the topic in a way that was make or break kind of situation.
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O.K. Just be "Kewl"! Don't let everyone else get your panties into a bundle! They think what they do. There's nothing that can be done about that. The IMPORTANT thing is how YOU, and your BF, think about what's going on! (And that means what I'm posting doesn't really matter that much, either! 
)
You know what you like, and Him, being younger, may not be all that sure about what he can accept from You, or from Himself, yet. I can completely understand His reluctance to be willing to "share" you with anyone else. It's a matter of "Sport" vs Love. It seems He has not yet grasped the idea that if you Love someone, you must be willing to let them go. And, only if they return to You, of their own accord, it is only Then that they are truly Yours.
In my case, I'm not all that crazy about "My" Kev going to "The Gym" and sucking off, or getting blown, by other Guys! But, I can understand why he feels the need to do that. And, I do not frown upon Him, for doing so, because I don't wish to deny Him the pleasure that I so understand, and relate to!
It is precisely because I do LOVE Him that I "let" Him do that!
Total, complete, acceptance, with no holds barred, of the ones we cherish the most, is not the easiest thing we'll run across in LIFE! It takes some time, and experience, to fully grasp!
I'm not saying that You are the "innocent" in this whole thing. You do have some responsibility to your relationship with your BF! And, do not forget that! However, given that He is as young as He is, and, therefore, hasn't quite gained the full insight, yet, it's perfectly understandable that He may have some reservations about Your rampant (Wow! I really like that word!) sexuality!
And, you do need to take that into consideration.
The "trick" to a long lasting relationship is the ability to reach compromises. What is decided may not be the ultimate for either party involved, but, at least, it can approach the "acceptable" for both.
YOU have more of an idea of where your headed, and want to go. Give your younger BF the time, and space, to "catch up" to You.
Of course ... no matter what ...
Keep smilin'!!
Chaz
)You know what you like, and Him, being younger, may not be all that sure about what he can accept from You, or from Himself, yet. I can completely understand His reluctance to be willing to "share" you with anyone else. It's a matter of "Sport" vs Love. It seems He has not yet grasped the idea that if you Love someone, you must be willing to let them go. And, only if they return to You, of their own accord, it is only Then that they are truly Yours.
In my case, I'm not all that crazy about "My" Kev going to "The Gym" and sucking off, or getting blown, by other Guys! But, I can understand why he feels the need to do that. And, I do not frown upon Him, for doing so, because I don't wish to deny Him the pleasure that I so understand, and relate to!
It is precisely because I do LOVE Him that I "let" Him do that!
Total, complete, acceptance, with no holds barred, of the ones we cherish the most, is not the easiest thing we'll run across in LIFE! It takes some time, and experience, to fully grasp!
I'm not saying that You are the "innocent" in this whole thing. You do have some responsibility to your relationship with your BF! And, do not forget that! However, given that He is as young as He is, and, therefore, hasn't quite gained the full insight, yet, it's perfectly understandable that He may have some reservations about Your rampant (Wow! I really like that word!) sexuality!
And, you do need to take that into consideration.The "trick" to a long lasting relationship is the ability to reach compromises. What is decided may not be the ultimate for either party involved, but, at least, it can approach the "acceptable" for both.
YOU have more of an idea of where your headed, and want to go. Give your younger BF the time, and space, to "catch up" to You.
Of course ... no matter what ...
Keep smilin'!!
Chaz
ABoyNamedSue
Porn Star
The best relationship I ever was an open relationship. There was more trust there in any other relationship I have ever been in. The communication was better than any relationship I have ever had. He and I both praticed safe sex, but in the reality of it there is no safe sex. There are certain pratices that minimize the risk, but it is never erradicated completely.
When he was diagnosed with AIDS and I was not it was crushing for the both us. How I avoided it I do not know? I loved him no less than before he was diagnosed. But, it changed the dynamic of the relationship. Because the thought that either one of us could invertly brought home a disease struck hard.
Ten years later I wish he were still here, and when we were orginally discussing an open relationship I wish we had been a bit more careful in our consideration.
When he was diagnosed with AIDS and I was not it was crushing for the both us. How I avoided it I do not know? I loved him no less than before he was diagnosed. But, it changed the dynamic of the relationship. Because the thought that either one of us could invertly brought home a disease struck hard.
Ten years later I wish he were still here, and when we were orginally discussing an open relationship I wish we had been a bit more careful in our consideration.
I'm really sorry to hear that. My lover and I always wear condoms during anal sex... but I do worry about (in the case of tricking, multiple one night stands) the things you can get just from oral sex. Maybe I'd go condoms all the way.
theFallenGod
P-Chan love
You know what ... upon re-reading your posts ... I see something that stands out...
Your boyfriend has made it known to you that he is not comfortable with this... yet he is willing to give you some wiggle room to try and keep you happy.
This is going to lead to resentment. Lots of it. Because he is giving up his happiness, comfortableness, and mental well-being for you.
You don't need to break up with him... your doing a fine job of pushing him away on your own.
Because 4 months into a relationship ... and you are already wanting others ... It's not going to be long before someone comes along that is going to sweet talk him away from you with promises of giving him what he wants.
He's not trying to control you here... I think you're just being a little too selfish to see that your needs and wants are more important than the love you both share and that is what will cause the most problems in the future... which won't be that far away.
You can tell me to go fuck myself because I know you don't want to hear it ... but the truth hurts and all I can say is good luck ... and I hope those "tricks" of yours will be as satisfying and rewarding in the long run.
Your boyfriend has made it known to you that he is not comfortable with this... yet he is willing to give you some wiggle room to try and keep you happy.
This is going to lead to resentment. Lots of it. Because he is giving up his happiness, comfortableness, and mental well-being for you.
You don't need to break up with him... your doing a fine job of pushing him away on your own.
Because 4 months into a relationship ... and you are already wanting others ... It's not going to be long before someone comes along that is going to sweet talk him away from you with promises of giving him what he wants.
He's not trying to control you here... I think you're just being a little too selfish to see that your needs and wants are more important than the love you both share and that is what will cause the most problems in the future... which won't be that far away.
You can tell me to go fuck myself because I know you don't want to hear it ... but the truth hurts and all I can say is good luck ... and I hope those "tricks" of yours will be as satisfying and rewarding in the long run.
Okay dude, whatever. Apparently you have these excellent readings skills but can't comprehend the parts where I state: neither of us have any intentions of breaking up, we have a great relationship, very romantic, in love, best friends, etc. Maybe you have something against open relationships or something, but please take your god damn doomsday advice elsewhere. It's not helping and it's seriously irrelevant and, quite frankly, way off. He said he's okay with one night stands and tricking, just not outright fuck buddies, so no, this is not building resentment and this thread is more about how to open discussion towards this kind of thing, not random douchebags who don't even know us saying it's over. Thanks, bye.
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Whoa!, "say"!
I think you should back up a step, or two, and sincerely consider what "Fallen" is trying to get across to you. He has some very valid points to think about, and is offering them, to you, in a caring way. I truly do think that you should drop your defensive shields, and consider what it is he is offering, with good intention.
What you do about it, or not, is entirely up to You. Yeah! "We" don't KNOW You, or your guy. But, merely going on what you have told us, the advice being offered, whether you accept it, or not, is being presented, not as an "attack", but out of concern for your present state, and future!
You may not LIKE what is being said, but, at least, I would hope that you will look at it in the manner in which it's given to you.
Of course ... no matter what ...
Keep smilin'!!
Chaz
I think you should back up a step, or two, and sincerely consider what "Fallen" is trying to get across to you. He has some very valid points to think about, and is offering them, to you, in a caring way. I truly do think that you should drop your defensive shields, and consider what it is he is offering, with good intention.
What you do about it, or not, is entirely up to You. Yeah! "We" don't KNOW You, or your guy. But, merely going on what you have told us, the advice being offered, whether you accept it, or not, is being presented, not as an "attack", but out of concern for your present state, and future!
You may not LIKE what is being said, but, at least, I would hope that you will look at it in the manner in which it's given to you.
Of course ... no matter what ...
Keep smilin'!!
Chaz
theFallenGod
P-Chan love
I have gone over your own posts... everything I have highlighted is his way of subtly and not so subtly telling you hes not really into it...
I am not saying you have to break up but you have a sort of impasse here... In order for you to be happy you want multiple partners... in order for him to be happy he wants just the 2 of you.
Personally I don't think it's fair to either of you. If one gives in to the other someone is going to be unhappy... and unhappy relationships just don't fare well for the future.
The most logical advice is to take a break from one another... you are both young and can still remain very close friends but it will give you both the opportunity to grow into things whether that be you deciding to settle down or him deciding that an open relationship could work for him. But at the moment, from what you have written, someone is not going to have the best time in this relationship.
I know it's not what you want to hear but I am just trying to be helpful... you came here for advice and I am giving it. Sometimes what we want to hear and what we need to hear are 2 entirely separate things.
And no one is questioning the love you have for your boyfriend.
I'm a little late to this party, but I can't help myself. 
How I admire you, for being able to separate sex and love. So few people can.
One thing I would suggest. You say your BF and you have such different "types" that 3-ways would be difficult.
I want to suggest finding some compromise here. Some type you both might be interested in. Is that possible?
When my BF, hispanic, and I were looking for a third, I really disliked the idea of a caucasian and he didn't really want another hispanic (we both relented later on those preferences), so we often had an asian partner in 3-ways.
For some reason, when starting off in an open relationship, I feel, it's important to have threesomes first, and during. I hope you two can find a way to do that....
How I admire you, for being able to separate sex and love. So few people can.
One thing I would suggest. You say your BF and you have such different "types" that 3-ways would be difficult.
I want to suggest finding some compromise here. Some type you both might be interested in. Is that possible?
When my BF, hispanic, and I were looking for a third, I really disliked the idea of a caucasian and he didn't really want another hispanic (we both relented later on those preferences), so we often had an asian partner in 3-ways.
For some reason, when starting off in an open relationship, I feel, it's important to have threesomes first, and during. I hope you two can find a way to do that....
OK guys... and that means everyone...
This thread is obviously a sensitive subject and one that we all feel pretty strongly about. Many of us have offered advice, advice that comes from the heart and a genuine desire to make sure saymyname is able to continue in what seems like a rare and incredible relationship.
But there is no point in flogging a dead horse or becoming abusive or obstructive... on anyones behalf.
Saymyname, you have the right and the responsibly to do whatever you feel is right, after all as you say only you can know yourself and your bf better than us.
Just please dont mistake peoples passion to see you make this work for criticism or control... its not. It serves no purpose to be hostile other than to create it... and when you look at where we are all going with this, yourself included, its with your best interests at heart.
Its your choice, its you call. Just consider all the aspects like you are before you make any decision.
This thread is obviously a sensitive subject and one that we all feel pretty strongly about. Many of us have offered advice, advice that comes from the heart and a genuine desire to make sure saymyname is able to continue in what seems like a rare and incredible relationship.
But there is no point in flogging a dead horse or becoming abusive or obstructive... on anyones behalf.
Saymyname, you have the right and the responsibly to do whatever you feel is right, after all as you say only you can know yourself and your bf better than us.
Just please dont mistake peoples passion to see you make this work for criticism or control... its not. It serves no purpose to be hostile other than to create it... and when you look at where we are all going with this, yourself included, its with your best interests at heart.
Its your choice, its you call. Just consider all the aspects like you are before you make any decision.
My boyfriend and I were both bottoms when we met. We took turns fucking one another and both quickly learned to enjoy topping as well as bottoming. Now he tops the majority of the time but once in a while I'll still top him. You'd be surprised how enjoyable it can be from the other side and you get to do it with the one you love. I guess bottoming is a bit more difficult to start doing than topping due to the need for a stretching to occur but otherwise it's really nice 
.
Best of luck!
. Best of luck!
Sorry if I get a little hostile sometimes, guys, it's just that in general there's a lot of hostility directed at people that are non-monogamous. And I think a lot of that hostility comes from misunderstanding: what other people see as us being greedy or "wanting our cake and eat it too" is really just that people into polyamorous philosophy follow a different concept of what love is and how relationships should and can work. And I'm especially hostile to people telling me that we should break up or that things aren't going to work out because I can't express how much I love this guy and how much effort I'm willing to put into making it work. The problem is compromise, and how to reach a decent compromise.
But I've come to at least one realization, making some of you right: he basically outrightly told me that he is not into the idea at all. He doesn't think there is a "problem" (neither do I) or doesn't see why it's necessary. It makes him feel sexually inadequate as a lover, which is not the message I'm trying to give off WHATSOEVER. He suggests that we spice up our sex life, do more role play, etc, but that's not the point and not the issue.
I feel like by him not understanding why I want to do this and why it is important to me, he's not picking up on a central part of my character. I told him from the very beginning that I was into open arrangements, that I don't think pleasure, sex, or love are things based on scarcity - in other words, that I don't think that sleeping with more than one person at a time means that you necessarily care about those people in a hierarchical manner. Likewise, I think that monogamy is something that is more or less an extension of the norm of heterosexual marriage: it doesn't HAVE to be like that. I'm not a heteronormative person and I have no desire to contribute to heteronormative institutions, such as monogamy, for a long period of time. I think that we more or less live in a sexually repressed society, and to me, monogamy feels repressive.
He thinks I sound like I "just want to be single," which is not the case AT ALL! Last night we talked on the phone about this for an hour and a half, and I mentioned how to me, monogamy feels like something that people do for an extended period of time: a few months, a few years, and then they eventually break up or cheat on each other. As it currently stands, I don't want to be with him for 10 months and be sexually exclusive just because we're both in love with each other, and I sure as hell am not ready, at TWENTY-ONE YEARS OF AGE, to settle down into a 'committed' monogamous, lifetime relationship. When he thinks about our future, he says he can picture us in our fourties together. So can I, and when he said that to me on the phone, I started to tear up because it was a beautiful thought. It's not that I don't want to be with him forever, it's that at this point in my life, I'm not ready to honestly say that I won't want to have sex with other random people, for fun, at some point. It's strange to me because two months ago, he said he'd be alright with it, as long as there's no kissing and we had little rules... now that it's a real proposition, he says, he's not comfortable with at all because there's nothing wrong with us and he wants to be normal.
That's where we are differing so much on this issue. I know there's nothing wrong with us, but I also know there's nothing wrong with casual sex. To me, this is sort of an ethical and philosophical issue - a matter of principal. My body is not property. I don't think that to love someone means to control them or their desires.
In order to illustrate these ideas, maybe a little background info is necessary. It was the summer after my 2nd year of college. I experienced (what I thought was) my first heartbreak, and decided that, since I don't want to get hurt again, I would refrain from getting involved in a serious relationship for a little while. As it happened, I started casually sleeping around and hooking up with really hot guys, discovering that I have the ability to sleep with almost anyone I want. For those of you that know the feeling... it's a very, very good one. It made me feel extremely empowered and confident. While I was sleeping with all of these people, I also became able to distinguish the line between a simple fuck versus something with passion involved - and my feelings for the participants. Eventually, what started to happen was with two 'friends with benefits', plus all the potential sex partners or lovers I was meeting all the time, I started to develop emotions for more than one person at a time, and I noticed how I liked them both equally in different ways. I remarked to a friend how it felt very strange because, on one hand, I did not have a 'boyfriend' in any traditional sense of the word, but on the other hand, I was involved with a lot of people, had love-like feelings for more than one of them, and the title "single" certainly didn't make sense either. That's how I was introduced to polyamory. It happened to me by accident. I had a whirlwind of lovers: some just fucks, some something more, some non-sexual. I read a book called "The Ethical Slut" which provided me with the philosophical, ethical, ideological information to analyze what I was going through and how it is managed. This is the major difference between me and my boyfriend... like me, before last summer, relationships were black and white: either you're single, or you're in a relationship - and an open relationship is just an excuse to fuck around in order to fill a sexual void with your partner, where as I see it as ADDING to the pleasure that you already have.
Are we doomed? No. Does he have a lot to learn about me? I think so. I was raised reading Ginsberg and Burroughs. Then, more recently in the past two years, Foucault and the Romantics. He sees my appropriation of philosophy and theory into my own life as absurd, whereas to me, it's the foundation of my influence and my lifestyle. I don't want to throw away a brilliant lifetime with him so that I can fuck a few people on the side, but at the same time, I don't want to spend a life time with someone who can potentially, eventually come to understand why fucking people on the side is important to me. I'm trying to be more cautious about this because I remember, at his age, I totally hated promiscuity and slutty people. But I've learned a lot about myself and about sex since then.
All of this leaves me feeling that he is really naive, and that it's almost impossible to talk about this stuff because we're essentially talking about two different things. So, for one, I'm really going to push for him to read up on the subject: The Ethical Slut, for one thing, and information online: http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/Poly/Labriola/open.html
and
http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/Poly/Labriola/jealousy.html
For me, what would be ideal is a Primary Partner model with his power to veto - and in the second link, it talks about shifting core beliefs - until he sympathizes with my different core beliefs, then we aren't going to be on the same page.
He said he'll start bottoming more. Role play. I explained to him how, sometimes, I want to fuck someone in totally different ways than him and I could ever possibly fuck each other, roleplay included. And that this doesn't mean that he is inadequate, but rather, I feel so secure with him that fucking someone else doesn't make me feel threatened and they're simple a side serving. To put in another way: he is the best, most delicious apple I have ever tasted. I want to eat apples for the rest of my life. He couldn't possibly be any more better tasting of an apple. But sometimes, on the occasion, I'll want a grape. I'll eat a grape, but I will forever love apple. I gave him other examples: sometimes I feel like fucking a closeted muscle jock. Sometimes I feel like I want to fuck a virgin twink. I'm kinky - I like rough, oftentimes degrading sex - something I simply CANNOT do with him - I can top him, sure, but compared to some sex I have, it's very vanilla. I have a right to explore my kinky side once in a while, or at least I should!
But to him, wanting to fuck other people simply means I have a desire to be single. I don't know if it's possible to convince someone that wanting to fuck other people has next to nothing to do with our relationship and that it's simply adding to what I or we already have: SEX IS NOT A STARVATION ECONOMY.
We often compare ourselves to Justin and Brian from QaF. He told me I want to be like Brian, and that I simply want to do this as to avoid normalcy and to stay in touch with my youth. I think that's totally fucking ridiculous. For me this is ethical, and for him it's emotional. I reminded him that Brian was 29 and not sure if he was ready to commit to a monogamous arrangement for life, and that we're 18 and 21, respectively, so how could I possibly feel that way. I love him to death and want to be with him forever, but if I want to fuck another person occasionally, I don't see why that equates for him to me running off in the middle of the night or ditching our plans for another guy, let alone falling in love with someone else. I'm looking at this from a highly theoretical and rational (for once) perspective, whereas he looks at it from his previous experience: he was in an open relationship, he met me for a fuck, and we fell in love - bye bye bf. While he asks who is to say that that couldn't happen again, this time to me, all I can think is that you shouldn't be with someone out of fear of meeting others, and that if he's really confident that I love him as much as I do, and vice versa, then he shouldn't be worried about that. He's afraid that it'll cause problems and I'll meet someone "better", I'm afraid that if we stay monogamous, I'm not being true to my feelings and like most monog couples, one of us will eventually cheat.
For now, I guess this is going on the backburner - we bring it up occasionally. My desire won't change. I'm going to try and introduce him to some literature that swayed my opinion on the subject and give him time. I know that relationships are about compromise... but I don't think I can compromise this part of myself. I think it would be more realistic for him to compromise his notions based on fear and misunderstanding, and to meet me halfway.
But I've come to at least one realization, making some of you right: he basically outrightly told me that he is not into the idea at all. He doesn't think there is a "problem" (neither do I) or doesn't see why it's necessary. It makes him feel sexually inadequate as a lover, which is not the message I'm trying to give off WHATSOEVER. He suggests that we spice up our sex life, do more role play, etc, but that's not the point and not the issue.
I feel like by him not understanding why I want to do this and why it is important to me, he's not picking up on a central part of my character. I told him from the very beginning that I was into open arrangements, that I don't think pleasure, sex, or love are things based on scarcity - in other words, that I don't think that sleeping with more than one person at a time means that you necessarily care about those people in a hierarchical manner. Likewise, I think that monogamy is something that is more or less an extension of the norm of heterosexual marriage: it doesn't HAVE to be like that. I'm not a heteronormative person and I have no desire to contribute to heteronormative institutions, such as monogamy, for a long period of time. I think that we more or less live in a sexually repressed society, and to me, monogamy feels repressive.
He thinks I sound like I "just want to be single," which is not the case AT ALL! Last night we talked on the phone about this for an hour and a half, and I mentioned how to me, monogamy feels like something that people do for an extended period of time: a few months, a few years, and then they eventually break up or cheat on each other. As it currently stands, I don't want to be with him for 10 months and be sexually exclusive just because we're both in love with each other, and I sure as hell am not ready, at TWENTY-ONE YEARS OF AGE, to settle down into a 'committed' monogamous, lifetime relationship. When he thinks about our future, he says he can picture us in our fourties together. So can I, and when he said that to me on the phone, I started to tear up because it was a beautiful thought. It's not that I don't want to be with him forever, it's that at this point in my life, I'm not ready to honestly say that I won't want to have sex with other random people, for fun, at some point. It's strange to me because two months ago, he said he'd be alright with it, as long as there's no kissing and we had little rules... now that it's a real proposition, he says, he's not comfortable with at all because there's nothing wrong with us and he wants to be normal.
That's where we are differing so much on this issue. I know there's nothing wrong with us, but I also know there's nothing wrong with casual sex. To me, this is sort of an ethical and philosophical issue - a matter of principal. My body is not property. I don't think that to love someone means to control them or their desires.
In order to illustrate these ideas, maybe a little background info is necessary. It was the summer after my 2nd year of college. I experienced (what I thought was) my first heartbreak, and decided that, since I don't want to get hurt again, I would refrain from getting involved in a serious relationship for a little while. As it happened, I started casually sleeping around and hooking up with really hot guys, discovering that I have the ability to sleep with almost anyone I want. For those of you that know the feeling... it's a very, very good one. It made me feel extremely empowered and confident. While I was sleeping with all of these people, I also became able to distinguish the line between a simple fuck versus something with passion involved - and my feelings for the participants. Eventually, what started to happen was with two 'friends with benefits', plus all the potential sex partners or lovers I was meeting all the time, I started to develop emotions for more than one person at a time, and I noticed how I liked them both equally in different ways. I remarked to a friend how it felt very strange because, on one hand, I did not have a 'boyfriend' in any traditional sense of the word, but on the other hand, I was involved with a lot of people, had love-like feelings for more than one of them, and the title "single" certainly didn't make sense either. That's how I was introduced to polyamory. It happened to me by accident. I had a whirlwind of lovers: some just fucks, some something more, some non-sexual. I read a book called "The Ethical Slut" which provided me with the philosophical, ethical, ideological information to analyze what I was going through and how it is managed. This is the major difference between me and my boyfriend... like me, before last summer, relationships were black and white: either you're single, or you're in a relationship - and an open relationship is just an excuse to fuck around in order to fill a sexual void with your partner, where as I see it as ADDING to the pleasure that you already have.
Are we doomed? No. Does he have a lot to learn about me? I think so. I was raised reading Ginsberg and Burroughs. Then, more recently in the past two years, Foucault and the Romantics. He sees my appropriation of philosophy and theory into my own life as absurd, whereas to me, it's the foundation of my influence and my lifestyle. I don't want to throw away a brilliant lifetime with him so that I can fuck a few people on the side, but at the same time, I don't want to spend a life time with someone who can potentially, eventually come to understand why fucking people on the side is important to me. I'm trying to be more cautious about this because I remember, at his age, I totally hated promiscuity and slutty people. But I've learned a lot about myself and about sex since then.
All of this leaves me feeling that he is really naive, and that it's almost impossible to talk about this stuff because we're essentially talking about two different things. So, for one, I'm really going to push for him to read up on the subject: The Ethical Slut, for one thing, and information online: http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/Poly/Labriola/open.html
and
http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/Poly/Labriola/jealousy.html
For me, what would be ideal is a Primary Partner model with his power to veto - and in the second link, it talks about shifting core beliefs - until he sympathizes with my different core beliefs, then we aren't going to be on the same page.
He said he'll start bottoming more. Role play. I explained to him how, sometimes, I want to fuck someone in totally different ways than him and I could ever possibly fuck each other, roleplay included. And that this doesn't mean that he is inadequate, but rather, I feel so secure with him that fucking someone else doesn't make me feel threatened and they're simple a side serving. To put in another way: he is the best, most delicious apple I have ever tasted. I want to eat apples for the rest of my life. He couldn't possibly be any more better tasting of an apple. But sometimes, on the occasion, I'll want a grape. I'll eat a grape, but I will forever love apple. I gave him other examples: sometimes I feel like fucking a closeted muscle jock. Sometimes I feel like I want to fuck a virgin twink. I'm kinky - I like rough, oftentimes degrading sex - something I simply CANNOT do with him - I can top him, sure, but compared to some sex I have, it's very vanilla. I have a right to explore my kinky side once in a while, or at least I should!
But to him, wanting to fuck other people simply means I have a desire to be single. I don't know if it's possible to convince someone that wanting to fuck other people has next to nothing to do with our relationship and that it's simply adding to what I or we already have: SEX IS NOT A STARVATION ECONOMY.
We often compare ourselves to Justin and Brian from QaF. He told me I want to be like Brian, and that I simply want to do this as to avoid normalcy and to stay in touch with my youth. I think that's totally fucking ridiculous. For me this is ethical, and for him it's emotional. I reminded him that Brian was 29 and not sure if he was ready to commit to a monogamous arrangement for life, and that we're 18 and 21, respectively, so how could I possibly feel that way. I love him to death and want to be with him forever, but if I want to fuck another person occasionally, I don't see why that equates for him to me running off in the middle of the night or ditching our plans for another guy, let alone falling in love with someone else. I'm looking at this from a highly theoretical and rational (for once) perspective, whereas he looks at it from his previous experience: he was in an open relationship, he met me for a fuck, and we fell in love - bye bye bf. While he asks who is to say that that couldn't happen again, this time to me, all I can think is that you shouldn't be with someone out of fear of meeting others, and that if he's really confident that I love him as much as I do, and vice versa, then he shouldn't be worried about that. He's afraid that it'll cause problems and I'll meet someone "better", I'm afraid that if we stay monogamous, I'm not being true to my feelings and like most monog couples, one of us will eventually cheat.
For now, I guess this is going on the backburner - we bring it up occasionally. My desire won't change. I'm going to try and introduce him to some literature that swayed my opinion on the subject and give him time. I know that relationships are about compromise... but I don't think I can compromise this part of myself. I think it would be more realistic for him to compromise his notions based on fear and misunderstanding, and to meet me halfway.
G-Lexington
Lex. Icon. Devil.
I think you've made things very clear. My only issue now is that you're making this his fault. If only HE wasn't so uptight, if only HE didn't have these hang-ups, if only HE wasn't so brainwashed by society into thinking monogamy was a good thing... And so you'll continue working on him - gently, of course - hoping that HE'll see that HE's wrong, that HE shoudln't feel this way, and that if HE really loved you, HE'd free you up to meet and fuck other guys.
But I can just as easily turn the tables.
If only YOU weren't so insistent on sexual variety, if only YOU didn't feel your sexual wants were more important than your relationship, if only YOU realized that sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it...
Again, I'm just thinking you have two different takes on it. It seems like he's done quite a bit of compromising, to the point where he's quite uncomfortable. And the only compromise I see on your end is "I won't go find another guy just yet". I'm not sure where this is headed, but I think you do need to give heavy thought to the idea that you might have to choose between having precisely what you want sexually, and your boyfriend.
Lex
But I can just as easily turn the tables.
If only YOU weren't so insistent on sexual variety, if only YOU didn't feel your sexual wants were more important than your relationship, if only YOU realized that sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it...
Again, I'm just thinking you have two different takes on it. It seems like he's done quite a bit of compromising, to the point where he's quite uncomfortable. And the only compromise I see on your end is "I won't go find another guy just yet". I'm not sure where this is headed, but I think you do need to give heavy thought to the idea that you might have to choose between having precisely what you want sexually, and your boyfriend.
Lex
How has he done ANY compromising!? For a boy that told me in the beginning that he'd be okay with going open eventually, he sure does seem conservative right now. He won't read -or he's resistant to. He won't consider, won't mull it over, he's going with a gut feeling. I don't want to have to choose between what I precisely want sexually and him. I feel like I'd be more likely to choose him, but I told him from the beginning that I'm a counter-cultural person. He's going back on original intentions... we were only monogamous at first to make things less complicated. I don't know where he got the fucking idea that I'd be okay with never having sex with anyone else ever again. I wouldn't wish that upon him either. He keeps telling me to deal with my outside desires: saying he likes a guy with big pecks, but I don't have those, and he just deals with it. Tells me to jerk off. I look at it like, dude, go and find some fuck friend with pecks for a half hour. He also knew from the start that I'm an above average horny person. I like to have sex at least once a day and if I'm not then I jerk off anywhere from one to three times a day. And I can be like that and still be the college boy that has brought him roses, writes him poetry, and made him a picnic. I'm still a romantic.
cardshark
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I've been reading this thread with some interest because I met someone who challenged my ethics and feelings that a healthy relationship has to be monogamous. You put things a lot more eloquently than he did. The only thing that is stopping me from making the leap is health concerns. I know, people here say its safe if you are cautious and use a condom, but I still can't get over it because, in my mind, the only truly safe sex is no sex. And having me, or my partner, or even both messing around increases the risk exponentially. I am having hard time getting over this risk no matter how small people say it is. Part of the problem is that nobody can literally quantify the risks, so it makes it difficult for me to get over the health concerns.
Anyway, that's my problem. It's not related to your issue so I won't elaborate here. I just wanted to mention this and thank you for some very good arguments.
I did have one question for you, though. If push came to shove and your boyfriend couldn't make the compromise, do you love him enough to give up this freedom you desire? I know you don't have to make this decision now or maybe never, but what if you did? How would you decide?
Anyway, that's my problem. It's not related to your issue so I won't elaborate here. I just wanted to mention this and thank you for some very good arguments.
I did have one question for you, though. If push came to shove and your boyfriend couldn't make the compromise, do you love him enough to give up this freedom you desire? I know you don't have to make this decision now or maybe never, but what if you did? How would you decide?
theFallenGod
P-Chan love
Did he not say he would be willing to bottom for you? He has even given you alternatives... like the occasional one night stand... even though he really doesn't want to...
Have you even asked him if he would like dirty rough sex every once in a while?
Just because you love someone doesn't mean you can't have dirty rough just sex with them either.
Sometimes thats just as hot ...even hotter.
It's funny because I kinda got the same impression as Lex.... There seems to be a lot of trying to change him towards your needs and not a lot of trying to change yourself for his. Which, to me, seems a bit more controlling.
Not that either of you should exactly change... to do so would take away from who you both are individually.
Plus, you and he did say you would start off monogamous and then later possibly change... but in all honesty it has only been 4 months so giving it a bit more time is the wisest thing to do. He might eventually change his mind ...or you might.
Just_Believe18
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That was a much better post, saymyname. I understand your philosophy and where you are coming from. My only question is why did you involve yourself in this relationship if you were happy with the way things were? You were screwing lots of guys, had fuck buddies you cared deeply for. Why did you start a relationship that was monogamous over the revelation of what you already had? At some point, you agreed to be monogamous with your boyfriend (you haven't had sex with anyone else since then) and he likes it that way.
Now let me explain something to you. Your boyfriend is 18. How many guys has he dated, been in relationships, screwed? Think of where you were when you were 18. He hasn't added 3 years to his life like you have.
Your boyfriend doesn't understand. He's young and inexperienced in comparison to you. He's still going through puberty and growing up in case you forgot. You can't expect to throw all of your philosophy on sex onto him and expect him to accept it. He doesn't understand it. His life is not in a position where he can comprehend the experiences of what makes you sexually happy.
This is why I am concerned over your relationship. You are so self-confident and self-righteous (not in a condescending way) that you overlook the fact people, particularly your boyfriend, do not have the experiences or the understanding of your philosophy. Remember, he's just a boy. A cute, lovable boy that you adore. But still, just a boy.
Now let me explain something to you. Your boyfriend is 18. How many guys has he dated, been in relationships, screwed? Think of where you were when you were 18. He hasn't added 3 years to his life like you have.
Your boyfriend doesn't understand. He's young and inexperienced in comparison to you. He's still going through puberty and growing up in case you forgot. You can't expect to throw all of your philosophy on sex onto him and expect him to accept it. He doesn't understand it. His life is not in a position where he can comprehend the experiences of what makes you sexually happy.
This is why I am concerned over your relationship. You are so self-confident and self-righteous (not in a condescending way) that you overlook the fact people, particularly your boyfriend, do not have the experiences or the understanding of your philosophy. Remember, he's just a boy. A cute, lovable boy that you adore. But still, just a boy.
954dude
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I'll tell you straight up: talk to him and work things out. But going by what you're posting, I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.
It should be you and him. Whatever issues are in the relationship won't be solved by going to another person. But whatever decision you make is yours...and nature will take its course.
It should be you and him. Whatever issues are in the relationship won't be solved by going to another person. But whatever decision you make is yours...and nature will take its course.