Good and Evil Span Both Belief and Non-Belief.

[TX-Beau]

None of the theists posting here are suggesting that one should ignore the input of science, and its relevance to the well being of human life; nor that ones relationship with the divine mystery should be self limiting. It is worth noting that over the centuries some of the great scientists, and progressive thinkers were also theists, leading me to understand that science, and belief in the divine mystery are compatible with rational thinking.

AND none of the atheists posting in here are suggesting that one should ignore the human condition - no matter how much you attempt to insinuate to the contrary.

Why exactly is it that there can be no fulfillment without "spirituality?" It is worth noting that over the centuries some of the great scientists, and progressive thinkers were also atheists, leading me to understand that science, and the ability to contribute philosophically are compatible with rational thinking.[/QUOTE]

 

[kallipolis]

That's pretty much an invention for yourself about people who won't join in your semantic fantasizing. The only thing obsessive compulsive in here is your massive reluctance to face the fact that you don't have any, you have "numinous experience."

It's really quite amusing that you insist that your every fantastical whim be addressed when you won't even admit that you're dealing in things utterly intangible.

It's even more amusing that you've been told several times that no one cares if you can prove a damn thing - and yet that's exactly what you keep insisting people are demanding of you. Nope, people are demanding that you refrain from using terms like "evidence" if you're just going to get butt hurt when someone asks you where that evidence might be.

Keep repeating your demands for proof, and just perhaps an echo might reverberate across the centuries, to inform you that your needs for proof will be met, only when you enter into a relationship with the divine mystery. That will require your cooperation including surrendering your ego into the care of the divine mystery.

 

[kallipolis]

AND none of the atheists posting in here are suggesting that one should ignore the human condition - no matter how much you attempt to insinuate to the contrary.

Why exactly is it that there can be no fulfillment without "spirituality?" It is worth noting that over the centuries some of the great scientists, and progressive thinkers were also atheists, leading me to understand that science, and the ability to contribute philosophically are compatible with rational thinking.

Rational thinkers, and their thoughts are compatible with a spiritual life.

I quote one of my favourite thinkers:

“I very clearly recognise that the certainty and truth of all knowledge depends alone on the knowledge of the true God, in so much that, before I knew Him, I could not have a perfect knowledge of any other thing.”
― René Descartes, Meditations on First Philosophy:
In Which the Existence of God and the Distinction of the Soul from the Body Are Demonstrated

 

[Spensed]

Rational thinkers, and their thoughts are compatible with a spiritual life.

It's not as black and white as that.

To some "rational thinkers", the idea of a spiritual life conditioned on subjective faith based beliefs and lacking in objective proof is irrational per se.

To other "rational thinkers", spiritual life is not automatically seen as an irrational dimension, but a different and metaphysical layer that may reflect truth in the same way that poetry or music or the more abstract realms of pure science.

To many religious folk, faith is a gift of grace. It has nothing to do with reason or proof or desire to have faith. To such folk, the issue of whether a faith-based spiritual life is compatible with reason is moot.

You pays yer money and you makes yer choice.

You seem to be staking a claim that all "rational thinkers" must recognize a compatibility of their thinking with "a spiritual life" based on seemingly largely your own subjective experience. That simply isn't true. You are blinded by your own faith.

 

[ludolfo]

I am not referring to the mystery/sacrament that is the Eucharist.

The Greek word is: ὁμοούσιος, or consubstantialis in Latin.

Jesus relates to this reality in clear terms:




Jesus is conscious of his own personality, as a human being distinct from that of the Father, yet he asserts a oneness in being with The Father. This is the ὁμοούσιος, or consubstantialis that I am relating too, when speaking to my own experiences living with the understanding that all human life is one in being, with The Father. In simpler secular language the Spirit of The Creator resides in every human person. This is The Logos that I referenced earlier in this thread. Logos is a term that can be traced back to ancient Greece when wise men understood that the divine presence is the causation of the life affirming decisions that human beings make. When I refer to the divine presence, I am in Nicean Creed language referring to the Holy Spirit, as Christian doctrine understands The Logos.

But all of that is patriarchal mythical cooption and expropriation of the Great Mother, the far more ancient religion! To be one with the Mother, who is nature. and is not a belief system which harps on about being 'one with the Father' and yet denounces the natural world. and the body, and ones own nature as being 'fallen' which is a major mind-fkuing contra-diction. It is a belief system for slaveery, and of being constantly fearful, fearing hell IF you don't conform to the cult

The Christmas season is the ideal period to reference The Logos (The Word), as John the Apostle understood the presence of the divine mystery, in human life:

The Christmas season is also a cooption and expropriation by the Christian church just like other pagan celebration!

 

[kallipolis]

It's not as black and white as that.

To some "rational thinkers", the idea of a spiritual life conditioned on subjective faith based beliefs and lacking in objective proof is irrational per se.

To other "rational thinkers", spiritual life is not automatically seen as an irrational dimension, but a different and metaphysical layer that may reflect truth in the same way that poetry or music or the more abstract realms of pure science.

To many religious folk, faith is a gift of grace. It has nothing to do with reason or proof or desire to have faith. To such folk, the issue of whether a faith-based spiritual life is compatible with reason is moot.

You pays yer money and you makes yer choice.

You seem to be staking a claim that all "rational thinkers" must recognize a compatibility of their thinking with "a spiritual life" based on seemingly largely your own subjective experience. That simply isn't true. You are blinded by your own faith.

That is what you are claiming that I believe, whereas I have stated that a spiritual life is compatible with rational thinking, and cited the words of René Descartes elaborating on my thoughts.

 

[kallipolis]

But all of that is patriarchal mythical cooption and expropriation of the Great Mother, the far more ancient religion! To be one with the Mother, who is nature. and is not a belief system which harps on about being 'one with the Father' and yet denounces the natural world. and the body, and ones own nature as being 'fallen' which is a major mind-fkuing contra-diction. It is a belief system for slaveery, and of being constantly fearful, fearing hell IF you don't conform to the cult



The Christmas season is also a cooption and expropriation by the Christian church just like other pagan celebration!

It matters not to me what word, or term you use to describe the divine mystery, knowing well that the created do not create the divine reality; rather, the reverse.

Most here know that Christianity supplanted various earlier pagan festivals. No mystery here.

 

[TX-Beau]

Keep repeating your demands for proof, and just perhaps an echo might reverberate across the centuries, to inform you that your needs for proof will be met, only when you enter into a relationship with the divine mystery. That will require your cooperation including surrendering your ego into the care of the divine mystery.

Keep repeating this falsehood, and just perhaps an echo might reverberate across the centuries, to inform you that your irrational need to obfuscate will stop, only when you enter into a relationship with reality. That will require your cooperation including surrendering your ego in favor of reading what other people say even when you don't want to.

 

[TX-Beau]

That is what you are claiming that I believe, whereas I have stated that a spiritual life is compatible with rational thinking, and cited the words of René Descartes elaborating on my thoughts.

SO what, no one in here said you can't be rational and spiritual, that's just another thing you've made up to argue with since you don't want to talk about the original issue in the first place.

 

[kallipolis]

Keep repeating this falsehood, and just perhaps an echo might reverberate across the centuries, to inform you that your irrational need to obfuscate will stop, only when you enter into a relationship with reality. That will require your cooperation including surrendering your ego in favor of reading what other people say even when you don't want to.

Noted.......

- - - Updated - - -

SO what, no one in here said you can't be rational and spiritual, that's just another thing you've made up to argue with since you don't want to talk about the original issue in the first place.

Noted......

 

[TX-Beau]

Noted.......

- - - Updated - - -



Noted......

OH GOOD! You haven't been "noting" things with your usual regularity of late. I feel a warm glow since I was able to help out.

 

[ludolfo]

It matters not to me what word, or term you use to describe the divine mystery, knowing well that the created do not create the divine reality; rather, the reverse.

Most here know that Christianity supplanted various earlier pagan festivals. No mystery here.

But you give your game away that very assertion

knowing well that the created do not create the divine reality; rather, the reverse.

That is the saying 'worship the creator not the ['his'] creation' IE 'his property' and remembering 'he' is a very 'jealous god.
But in the mythos of the Great Mother, she is the creation! There is no 'divine mystery' lording it over one and all which only 'ones in the know who claim to know 'it' know'

 

[Jacquemar]

But you give your game away that very assertion That is the saying 'worship the creator not the ['his'] creation' IE 'his property' and remembering 'he' is a very 'jealous god.
But in the mythos of the Great Mother, she is the creation! There is no 'divine mystery' lording it over one and all which only 'ones in the know who claim to know 'it' know'

As interesting as all this is, I don't think you're going to convert any here...

 

[ludolfo]

As interesting as all this is, I don't think you're going to convert any here...

why? not that I am trying to 'convert' but simply sharing how I feel. But what makes you say that?

 

[kallipolis]

But you give your game away that very assertion That is the saying 'worship the creator not the ['his'] creation' IE 'his property' and remembering 'he' is a very 'jealous god.
But in the mythos of the Great Mother, she is the creation! There is no 'divine mystery' lording it over one and all which only 'ones in the know who claim to know 'it' know'

Pantheistic beliefs are fine for those whose understandings are representative of their wishes.

The secrets of the divine mystery, remains just that...

...until we enter into a relationship with its presence in our life...

Each person's understandings of the divine mystery do not change its living reality in our life.

“We can see the Divine in each speck of dust, but that doesn't stop us from wiping it away with a wet sponge. The Divine doesn't disappear; it's transformed into the clean surface.” ― Paulo Coelho

 

[Spensed]

^ Your statements beg the question of whether there is something divine to appear or disappear or whether it's just a figment of one's imagination.

I'm not minimizing the value of subjective experience. Faith can give one hope and enable people to survive and endure in certain circumstances. But it doesn't mean that those subjective experiences have any objective foundation. They may just be wishful thinking. There may simply be no divine mystery beyond one's imagination.

Even, if one has faith, one has to acknowledge and live with that possibility. Perhaps I'm just saying the obvious?

 

[kallipolis]

^ Your statements beg the question of whether there is something divine to appear or disappear or whether it's just a figment of one's imagination.

I'm not minimizing the value of subjective experience. Faith can give one hope and enable people to survive and endure in certain circumstances. But it doesn't mean that those subjective experiences have any objective foundation. They may just be wishful thinking. There may simply be no divine mystery beyond one's imagination.

Even, if one has faith, one has to acknowledge and live with that possibility. Perhaps I'm just saying the obvious?

When discussing the imagination there is a spiritual element that recognises one is in being, with the creating source of ones life, when exploring the vastness of the human condition, as the brain understands its thinking processes.

When relating to the imagination we enter into the realm of the sub conscious, or pre conscious, or interior life....terms that attempt to understand the relationship between the conscious, and perceived sub conscious reality of being oneself.

More abstractly it's a method of consciously entering into a dialogue with the unconscious, triggering the transcendent function, a vital shift in consciousness, brought about through the merging of the conscious, and unconscious for the purpose of understanding, or self informing with a will to deal with particularly difficult challenges.

The active imagination is purposely the dialogue between the creative (unconscious) and critical (conscious) drives that set in motion ones dreams to create a better, more fulfilling life.

There is therapeutic value when entering into the sphere of the imagination, but one should distinguish sharply between the true imaginations that stem from the imaginal realm, and personal fantasies, which have an unreal character, and are "imaginary" in the common sense of this word.

In conclusion it may be argued that the active imagination is a cognitive methodology using the imagination to reach into the sphere of ones relationship with the source of ones being.

 

[TX-Beau]

When discussing the imagination there is a spiritual element that recognises one is in being, with the creating source of ones life, when exploring the vastness of the human condition, as the brain understands its thinking processes.

When relating to the imagination we enter into the realm of the sub conscious, or pre conscious, or interior life....terms that attempt to understand the relationship between the conscious, and perceived sub conscious reality of being oneself.

More abstractly it's a method of consciously entering into a dialogue with the unconscious, triggering the transcendent function, a vital shift in consciousness, brought about through the merging of the conscious, and unconscious for the purpose of understanding, or self informing with a will to deal with particularly difficult challenges.

The active imagination is purposely the dialogue between the creative (unconscious) and critical (conscious) drives that set in motion ones dreams to create a better, more fulfilling life.

There is therapeutic value when entering into the sphere of the imagination, but one should distinguish sharply between the true imaginations that stem from the imaginal realm, and personal fantasies, which have an unreal character, and are "imaginary" in the common sense of this word.

In conclusion it may be argued that the active imagination is a cognitive methodology using the imagination to reach into the sphere of ones relationship with the source of ones being.

SO, basically you latched onto the word "imagination" then went off into obfuscatoria in order to avoid any kind of response to what he actually said.

How very imaginative.

 

[kallipolis]

I've always been enchanted by this quote, appropriate here:

There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth: not going all the way, and not starting. - Buddha

 

[TX-Beau]

I've always been enchanted by this quote, appropriate here:

I think Buddha missed a few...