GOP brought this plague on itself

[kallipolis]

We haven't really. You just view the issue only in terms of "annoyance/disagreement."

I have subscribed lifelong to "your freedom to swing your fist ends when it hits the next man's nose."

Freedom for someone to swing their fist no matter how many noses it hits and repeating to the noses a platitude about democracy falls a bit flat.

Otters has noted already that European parliamentary democracies operate differently to the United States system of governance.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Otters has noted already that European parliamentary democracies operate differently to the United States system of governance.

I offered that we were probably speaking from different assumptions of norms much earlier and you didn't comment.

 

[kallipolis]

I offered that we were probably speaking from different assumptions of norms much earlier and you didn't comment.

I have several times referred to the parliamentary system operating in Greece. Neither The Golden Dawn, nor The Communist Party form part of the government of Greece. They are small parties, among several other small parties. The leader of the Golden Dawn currently languishes in Athens prison, held on remand awaiting trial for a variety of serious charges along with a few of his party cronies who are also members of parliament. They are released occasionally to attend parliament when ever an important vote is taking place.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I have several times referred to the parliamentary system operating in Greece. Neither The Golden Dawn, nor The Communist Party form part of the government of Greece. They are small parties, among several other small parties. The leader of the Golden Dawn currently languishes in Athens prison, held on remand awaiting trial for a variety of serious charges along with a few of his party cronies who are also members of parliament. They are released occasionally to attend parliament when ever an important vote is taking place.

I'm sure it works fine. In a picture where everyone understands there is no shot they are going to take over the government.

 

[peeonme]

Did you grow and learn and expand your personal development from Congresswoman Giffords being shot in the head after Sarah Palin put up a political hit list?

Even if you did I'd hardly say that was a price she should have paid for it.

I am not referring to events, but rather philosophes. When I was a teen being a staunch patriot and conservative was comfortable. It is a simple way to think... black and white, right or wrong. However as I matured I found that life had variables, different shades and was far more complex and that there was not a one size fits all answer for all of life's questions.

The one thing that I took pleasure in was finding that I was wrong, that meant that I had learned something new and had grown as a person. The only thing wrong with wrong is staying that way. If we hide in conservatism or liberalism and refuse to hear opposing points of view then we cheat ourselves.

If we are right the opposing point of view will serve to fortify our position, if we are wrong we need to find out.
At one time some thought that the earth was flat, they were so sure that they silenced those who said that it was round (actually spherical)
They were so sure...

 

[xbuzzerx]

I am not referring to events, but rather philosophes. When I was a teen being a staunch patriot and conservative was comfortable. It is a simple way to think... black and white, right or wrong. However as I matured I found that life had variables, different shades and was far more complex and that there was not a one size fits all answer for all of life's questions.

The one thing that I took pleasure in was finding that I was wrong, that meant that I had learned something new and had grown as a person. The only thing wrong with wrong is staying that way. If we hide in conservatism or liberalism and refuse to hear opposing points of view then we cheat ourselves.

If we are right the opposing point of view will serve to fortify our position, if we are wrong we need to find out.
At one time some thought that the earth was flat, they were so sure that they silenced those who said that it was round (actually spherical)
They were so sure...

Philosophically I agree with you.

In a practical sense I think that we SHOULD, as a society, recognize that you can't yell fire in a theater. And that the constraining of so doing brings far more good than the freedom of allowing someone to do so.

 

[peeonme]

Philosophically I agree with you.

In a practical sense I think that we SHOULD, as a society, recognize that you can't yell fire in a theater. And that the constraining of so doing brings far more good than the freedom of allowing someone to do so.

I agree..............

 

[TX-Beau]

I have several times referred to the parliamentary system operating in Greece. Neither The Golden Dawn, nor The Communist Party form part of the government of Greece. They are small parties, among several other small parties. The leader of the Golden Dawn currently languishes in Athens prison, held on remand awaiting trial for a variety of serious charges along with a few of his party cronies who are also members of parliament. They are released occasionally to attend parliament when ever an important vote is taking place.

We don't have a parliamentary system, so you'll understand how your comments about some Greek Nazis who are just harmless nutbags seem to us completely irrelevant.

Here's how it works, it's called the spoils system - you elect one of TWO options, that guy then APPOINTS his buddies and cronies to all the top positions in the Executive. Period. There are no governments of differing interests "formed," there are no votes of "no confidence," you're stuck with the result unless you can move congress off its ponderous ass to try and impeach.

There are two things that are either being willfully conflated or just misunderstood. Freedom of expression is NOT political SPECIFIC POLICY PROPOSALS. Fine and dandy let the Nazis hate on their own dime like off in Greece where they are tolerated so - I bet we have greater freedom of expression protections than Greece does anyway.

That is one thing.

When POLITICIANS who are threatening to become the ONE CHOICE OF ONLY TWO ALLOWED, who are going to APPOINT ALL THEIR CRONIES AND BUDDIES, to high office start PROPOSING GOVERNMENTAL ACTIONS LIKE:

1. Mandatory Minority Registration and requirements to carry papers at all times.

2. Mass deportations.

3. Refugee camps.

4. Use of political Violence.

5. Mass Disenfranchisement.

6. Mandatory and warrant-less Government Surveillance on places of Worship and Religious leaders.

These are NOT EXPRESSIONS of philosophy, these are proposals to deny people the liberties about which we all feel so righteous. These are shouting fire in a crowded theater and there should be universal condemnation of anyone who suggests this kind of thing.

 

[Kulindahr]

We don't have a parliamentary system, so you'll understand how your comments about some Greek Nazis who are just harmless nutbags seem to us completely irrelevant.

Here's how it works, it's called the spoils system - you elect one of TWO options, that guy then APPOINTS his buddies and cronies to all the top positions in the Executive. Period. There are no governments of differing interests "formed," there are no votes of "no confidence," you're stuck with the result unless you can move congress off its ponderous ass to try and impeach.

There are two things that are either being willfully conflated or just misunderstood. Freedom of expression is NOT political SPECIFIC POLICY PROPOSALS. Fine and dandy let the Nazis hate on their own dime like off in Greece where they are tolerated so - I bet we have greater freedom of expression protections than Greece does anyway.

That is one thing.

When POLITICIANS who are threatening to become the ONE CHOICE OF ONLY TWO ALLOWED, who are going to APPOINT ALL THEIR CRONIES AND BUDDIES, to high office start PROPOSING GOVERNMENTAL ACTIONS LIKE:

1. Mandatory Minority Registration and requirements to carry papers at all times.

2. Mass deportations.

3. Refugee camps.

4. Use of political Violence.

5. Mass Disenfranchisement.

6. Mandatory and warrant-less Government Surveillance on places of Worship and Religious leaders.

These are NOT EXPRESSIONS of philosophy, these are proposals to deny people the liberties about which we all feel so righteous. These are shouting fire in a crowded theater and there should be universal condemnation of anyone who suggests this kind of thing.

Nicely said.

Though I'm not sure that shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is the proper equivalent -- more like posting online the intent to, say, blow up a concert hall. They're not actually triggering a travesty, they're just announcing their intent to perpetrate one.

 

[thewiz]

Remember that Romney and McCain were as thorougly demonized as Trump. Any non democrat will be. Liberals are inherently intolerant of any who disagree.

Trump is a liar -- plain and simple. The media and Republican party (if it had any balls and stood for anything) would repudiate him in the strictest of terms. However, his attraction and ratings mean that he can call in on "Meet the Press" rather than appear in person and then deny he said the things he did later. He can also mock handicap individuals and later claim to have been "misunderstood." I watched his spokesperson -- vice president of his brand -- try to deny what was on video (something that he didn't watch on 9-11).

We were just in New York; if he could see all the way to the tip of Manhattan and observe people jumping out of windows from his penthouse near Central Park, he's got a helluva lot better eyes than Superman since he'd be looking through tall buildings and smoke (across miles of distance).

Ben regurgitates the same old bullshit that has been tried by every Republican candidate how the media is at fault; don't blame the messenger that the Clown Car is full of feces -- sometimes facts are facts.

 

[kallipolis]

We don't have a parliamentary system,

That's been clearly demonstrated from the responses here...

....anything outside the United States belongs to another solar system.

 

[kallipolis]

Trump is a liar -- plain and simple.

It would be difficult to name a politician anywhere on this planet who has never lied.

Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, and MLK were known to lie, be it with good intent.

That there are politicians who lie more often, than others is also a fact of life.

 

[kallipolis]

Philosophically I agree with you.

In a practical sense I think that we SHOULD, as a society, recognize that you can't yell fire in a theater. And that the constraining of so doing brings far more good than the freedom of allowing someone to do so.

When we attempt to silence those whose opinions offend us, we deny to others that which we appropriate for ourselves, on the assumption that our rights are greater than theirs...here lies the dilemma for those who believe that they represent the idyllic political agenda...not lost on all dictators reaching back to the beginning of recorded human history.

Freedom of speech already has restraints imposed by slander, and libel laws sufficient to encourage people to think, before opening their mouth.

 

[Kabluey]

When we attempt to silence those whose opinions offend us, we deny to others that which we appropriate for ourselves, on the assumption that our rights are greater than theirs...here lies the dilemma for those who believe that they represent the idyllic political agenda...not lost on all dictators reaching back to the beginning of recorded human history.

Freedom of speech already has restraints imposed by slander, and libel laws sufficient to encourage people to think, before opening their mouth.

I guess the problem is when views are not countered or condemned by those who would benefit from his election.

If the republicans condemned his view, they would de-legitimise him in the eyes of their voters... But they seem timid about actually doing that.

Free speech is how we operate, however speech does not exist in a vacuum, and others have the freedom to express a contrary opinion to the statements, promises and assertions trump has made.

 

[kallipolis]

I guess the problem is when views are not countered or condemned by those who would benefit from his election.

If the republicans condemned his view, they would de-legitimise him in the eyes of their voters... But they seem timid about actually doing that.

Free speech is how we operate, however speech does not exist in a vacuum, and others have the freedom to express a contrary opinion to the statements, promises and assertions trump has made.

It is my impression that Trump is not held in high esteem by those in the higher echelons of the Republican Party.

Trump generates vitriolic comments here not just because of his proposals but because he has attracted much support from the rank, and file of the traditional Republican voter. This speaks much to the grass roots of United States society that such horrendous proposals are receiving broad support from the lowest common denominator.

Responding to Trump's agenda is the very foundation of my input here...freedom of expression must be for all...otherwise, we here will relish wallowing in our virtuous paradise content to demonise Trump while also demanding that his ideas should not be given free expression in the public arena....because they offend...

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

No, no one here said that he didn't have freedom of expression at all. Again, that is what you are saying.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

One I would like to point out to stop using the word offend because it doesn't properly capture why people feel the need to criticize Donald Trump. Two, just because someone criticizes another individual does not mean the criticism means that the other person should be silenced or not be able to have an opinion. Three it feels like the kind of argument I have heard time and time again, where an individual should be free to say whatever they want but the people who criticize that individual are getting called out for trying to take away free speech, which is ironic considering you are criticizing the the person who is criticizing the initial individual.

My problem are the insults and the lies and the possible problems they could and actually have led to. There is a recent controversy from a guy on YouTube who outright threatened Planned Parenthood over the debunked fetus body parts nonsense and he also encouraged his viewers (about 2 million) to do so "that night." I unfortunately do not remember his name but this is a prime example as to why I will criticize Trump and his ilk because of the lies they perpetuate and it leading to anger/violence that is founded on lies.

 

[kallipolis]

Trump haters might well rage with joy reading this article, especially the humourous pictures guaranteed to entertain.:

http://www.theguardian.com/artandde...-trump-triggered-artistic-overload-republican

 

[Kabluey]

It is my impression that Trump is not held in high esteem by those in the higher echelons of the Republican Party.

Trump generates vitriolic comments here not just because of his proposals but because he has attracted much support from the rank, and file of the traditional Republican voter. This speaks much to the grass roots of United States society that such horrendous proposals are receiving broad support from the lowest common denominator.

Responding to Trump's agenda is the very foundation of my input here...freedom of expression must be for all...otherwise, we here will relish wallowing in our virtuous paradise content to demonise Trump while also demanding that his ideas should not be given free expression in the public arena....because they offend...

The condemnation, etc is part of free speech too. No rational person expects him to be silenced.
However it's interesting to see the Republicans avoiding condemnation of some of his more outlandish statements in case he actually wins it for them.

They could say they do not support his views... they could say it angrily. That's part of the debate.
Taking a softly-softly approach is tacit approval.
Condemnation is not the same as censorship.

 

[smokeshadow]

One I would like to point out to stop using the word offend because it doesn't properly capture why people feel the need to criticize Donald Trump. Two, just because someone criticizes another individual does not mean the criticism means that the other person should be silenced or not be able to have an opinion. Three it feels like the kind of argument I have heard time and time again, where an individual should be free to say whatever they want but the people who criticize that individual are getting called out for trying to take away free speech, which is ironic considering you are criticizing the the person who is criticizing the initial individual.


My problem are the insults and the lies and the possible problems they could and actually have led to. There is a recent controversy from a guy on YouTube who outright threatened Planned Parenthood over the debunked fetus body parts nonsense and he also encouraged his viewers (about 2 million) to do so "that night." I unfortunately do not remember his name but this is a prime example as to why I will criticize Trump and his ilk because of the lies they perpetuate and it leading to anger/violence that is founded on lies.

MDL - I believe that this is the immoral mortal (I refuse to call this P.O.S. a person) that you are referring to: http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovemen...ned_parenthood_doctors_afraid_for_their_lives