Got hit on, what now?

[hanshansen]

God, what have I got myself into. The intern has just moved into a big old house, the roomates and furniture haven't arrived yet, and she called me in a state last night because she was hearing noises coming from downstairs ... apparently her sister recommended that she call me ... after that I thought, she is really starting to see me as a point of authority. I hope she doesn't totally freak out when she sees my message (she doesn't have broadband at home yet). She is a lot smarter than she thinks she is but very young and cossetted and just out of uni (maybe that's why we get on).

I am so fucking underslept. The thought of leaving the house makes me feel sick.

*end of panic attack. will get up and make espresso*

 

[hanshansen]

I was going to moan about what a crappy week it's been (it's been the week from hell - viral infection, meetings and deadlines which meant I couldn't take time off work, and at the same time all this stress and the associated insomnia) - but then I got a really nice text from her (the intern), saying that I shouldn't stress, that I was her friend, and that I should totally follow up .

This has made my day. I was dreading that she would hate me and that I would run into her and have to avoid her.

She hadn't got back to me, but of course that's because she's got no internet.

This is starting to feel like a blog.

 

[hanshansen]

I know this thread has gone all over the place, but I do still need advice/help/opinions.

Last night (nothing happened, I was just in bed trying to get over a temperature) I admitted to myself, or it became clearer to me, that I'm not physically very attracted to this guy. If he asked me now, 'do you find me desirable', I think I would be at a loss. Given that, everything else becomes very puzzling.

When he hit on me after the wine night, I was sort of aroused, and afterwards I regretted that I had ended something that I was curious about. Part of me calculated, 'I should use this opportunity to address my inhibitions'. When we picked up where we had left off, I discovered that, so to speak, there was not much more 'there', sexually speaking. I was intermittently aroused but not very. In fact, I remember being almost shocked when he became very aroused, he became much more intense and I really just wanted to snuggle up close to him and relax. I was very tired.

However, I can't remember feeling this close to or unselfconscious with someone (other than parents etc. when I was a child). In many ways, it was a wonderful and emotionally very fulfilling experience. He was very kind to me in ways which are very hard to put into words. I remember seeing him when he was asleep, there was something very moving about that. It definitely went far beyond a 'just friends' experience, because it was far too intimate for that, and that includes physical intimacy. But for me it was for the most part non-sexual.

As a friend has pointed out to me, the important thing is that I continue to be honest with myself and with this guy about this. If I was to pursue a sexual relationship with him (at least without working through this), in a sense I would be trying to get something else though those means. That wouldn't be right, it would potentially lead to a lot of confusion and unhappiness on both sides.

But I really don't understand what that 'something else' is, or what it has the potential to turn into. Has anyone been in this situation?

 

[hanshansen]

I did a massive amount of thinking and talked to a couple of people about this and concluded that I do like the guy 'in that way'. What happened that night was too much, too soon and I was overwhelmed; I think I had the wrong mindset and expectations about what sex is (i.e. 'so this is contact with a piece of flesh, how come it's not doing anything for me?' rather than a process of communication between two people); and I have various hangups about thinking about guys in a sexual way which shouldn't have been operative in this case (chief among them, that this was someone who was actually interested in me).

So I let him know (via email) that I did have feelings for him but that things really needed to slow down. He replied that he sees some possibility but lots of issues. He wants to discuss over wine when he returns from a trip in a week's time.

So, I'm preparing for a brush-off (he's right, of course, about the issues), after which I'll be able to close this thread. But I expect it to be a good (informative and amicable) brush-off. Overall this hasn't been as painful as the last episode.

I just wonder how I'm going to be given the opportunity to inch my way forward and make the mistakes that I need to make to learn? Presumably, the next time something like this happens (and this was totally unexpected, so I shouldn't try to anticipate), things will go a baby step further again?

I did learn a fair bit through this experience, and I did come out to one more person (unless she misunderstood my email), which I guess is also good in the long run.

 

[hanshansen]

That post reads like a parody of myself, but I was actually serious. According to Myers-Briggs tests I'm about as T as it gets ...

 

[KaraBulut]

So, I'm preparing for a brush-off (he's right, of course, about the issues), after which I'll be able to close this thread.

Be careful not to self-sabotage.

With that said, there's a maelstrom here and not everyone has the energy to wait out the storm.


That post reads like a parody of myself, but I was actually serious. According to Myers-Briggs tests I'm about as T as it gets ...

There's probably an I and a P in there too.

 

[hanshansen]

OK, I can close the thread. We met tonight for a drink, we agreed to be friends. Because we were both uncertain about how our feelings might evolve, because of my unresolved issues which would make things difficult, and more generally because, it seems to me, both our lifestyles are incompatible with a relationship (he juggles a large number of friends and is constantly 'booked out' - you need to plan at least a week in advance if you want to see him; and my life is in flux and I'm preoccupied learning how to manage that).

Possibly I'm sad about this. If I am, I'll discover it in the next few nights when I'm trying to sleep . But at the moment I'm not. It was nice, and very uncomplicated. I'm glad to have made a connection with someone who is (in my estimation) what the Germans call 'menschlich', i.e. someone who is at home with human weaknesses in himself and others. That's a quality that I've discovered I rate very highly. He wants to have another drink in a few weeks (when he next has time). I'm happy with that.

 

[hanshansen]

While I was waiting for him at the bar, the waitress struck up a conversation with me about the wine tasting it turns out both of us had just been to, and I ended up buying a different vintage of one of the wines we'd both tried. We talked about the wine before I left.

Not that I was interested in the waitress, but I just realise I've never done anything like this before. The guy I've been talking about has, though, and has made a whole lot of friends in the hospitality industry that way. I'm definitely going back to that bar.

Interesting what comes out of wine tasting evenings.

 

[Lube]

However, I can't remember feeling this close to or unselfconscious with someone (other than parents etc. when I was a child). In many ways, it was a wonderful and emotionally very fulfilling experience. He was very kind to me in ways which are very hard to put into words. I remember seeing him when he was asleep, there was something very moving about that. It definitely went far beyond a 'just friends' experience, because it was far too intimate for that, and that includes physical intimacy. But for me it was for the most part non-sexual.

As a friend has pointed out to me, the important thing is that I continue to be honest with myself and with this guy about this. If I was to pursue a sexual relationship with him (at least without working through this), in a sense I would be trying to get something else though those means. That wouldn't be right, it would potentially lead to a lot of confusion and unhappiness on both sides.

But I really don't understand what that 'something else' is, or what it has the potential to turn into. Has anyone been in this situation?

Whether you realize it or not, you know exactly what you're looking for.

Love & affection.

There's nothing wrong with that. In fact it's a part of any healthy (sexual) relationship. You may be the type of guy that can't get a hard-on until he feels comfortable with someone he's next to.

You need to find more guys like this guy: patient & understanding. You'll blossom with the right guy.

 

[Lube]

Possibly I'm sad about this.

(... he says as he cries himself to sleep)!

Get in touch with your feelings. You are very sad. You liked this guy a lot. He was patient and understanding with you, although he did rush the sex at the end.

Learn from it. You need a guy to go slow with you. They're harder to find, but they're out there.

 

[hanshansen]

Whether you realize it or not, you know exactly what you're looking for.

Love & affection.

Yes, you've probably hit the nail on the head. Thank you for not telling me that's a bad thing .

Get in touch with your feelings. You are very sad.

I don't know that I am. I didn't sleep well last night, but that was largely because of the alcomohol.

It was not to be. For the reasons I mentioned, and fundamentally because we both had our doubts. He said that he was afraid that his feelings might suddenly turn, and I said ditto.

The things I'm (a little) sad about are that I would have liked more of the intimacy, that circumstances mean infrequent contact, and that (I suspect) I wanted there to be more compatibility than actually exists. We are quite different. We have different interests and different kinds of friends and different kinds of work. We seem to click on the basis of temperament and find it easy to be honest and open with each other about serious things. I just like him at some level, period. Gut feeling. I can't call him a friend because we don't know each other well enough but the fact that he wants to have another drink means there is scope for that to develop.

A big reason that I'm not sadder is that I realise I do actually now have a few friends who I'm getting the affection from and who seem to like me for who I am. Interestingly, I'm out to most of them .

 

[hanshansen]

I'm probably going to continue adding to this thread from time to time. It helps me, and no-one is forced to read it .

You are very sad. You liked this guy a lot.

Yes, unfortunately you were right . This is all a lot more painful than I anticipated.

First, I’m still at that point where I like him and don’t want any substitutes. I’ve been in this state before (‘I don’t want to be with anyone/thing else’) – with people and real estate and other things – and got over it each time, but I still don’t understand what causes the shift and why I suddenly don’t feel that way any more. At the moment I'm sitting it out and everything reminds me of him.

Secondly, and more importantly. Some people have a quality which I find it very hard to put into words, but I have a nose for it, I’m realising more and more that it trumps everything else for me. I really don’t know what to call it: kindness, natural politeness, sensitivity. It comes through in the way they treat me, the respect and consideration with which they talk about and treat other people, the unpretentious way in which they talk about themselves, the respect which others have for them. A lot of it seems to be very unselfconscious and unpremeditated. Oddly enough these people aren’t big on externals, they tend to dress badly and have haircuts which are low-maintenance at best, and (superficial and snobbish bastard that I am) it doesn’t bother me that much. In fact I get very sentimental about them, I come close to idolising them and I would be gutted if I lost their respect and affection. I wouldn't hear a word said against them.

I know exactly who I’m talking about here. My parents are in that group, so were my father’s parents (his mother in particular), so are two (possibly three) of my colleagues, so are a couple of my friends and my parents’ friends.

From what I’ve seen, and despite the fact that he wanted to get into my pants, the guy I’ve been talking about was like that as well. In fact that explains why I trusted him to such an extent.

In my current depressed and misanthropic state I’m thinking it’s very rare to find such people. I’ve started to realise how much I dislike some of my colleagues, who I’ve tended to get along well with in a joshing sort of way, but who are rude and self-important and grease up to some people and are disrespectful to others. A lot of the people at a party I was at on Saturday night were like that too.

I know that most if not all people are a mixture of qualities (including me), I know people who are vain and egocentric but also put a lot of pressure on themselves and have made big sacrifices for people they care about. I look for this good side in people, I get really disappointed if I discover there's less of it than I thought.

Finally there’s the issue of sex and attraction. At a basic level, I’m now simply frustrated. Over time I developed physical feelings for the guy and now I can’t live them out.

I can’t just ‘hook up’with someone (at a party or in a bar or online). First of all, in most cases it takes me a long time to realise that I’m attracted to someone. Secondly, I’m too inexperienced, wouldn’t be able to make a first move, and, as people have pointed out, I need someone who’s tolerant and patient. Lastly I really think it has to go beyond patient, I have to find someone who is ‘kind’ in the way I’ve tried to describe, otherwise I’ll never trust them enough.

There’s two things I think I can start working towards straight away. I need to have a group of friends who I feel comfortable (in my element) with, who basically know about my sexuality, who invite me to their events where there is a chance of meeting friends of friends. Essentially, I need to make it more likely that something like that wine night happens again.

I have friends who definitely come to mind in that respect, but they are recent friends (i.e. I like them a lot but I haven’t seen them that often and it’s early days) and most of them don’t know about my sexuality. But I know what I want, will keep an eye on opportunities, and when it feels right things will happen.

The second thing, I guess, is that I need to prepare myself mentally for something like this happening again. I was just totally not ready for it when this guy hit on me. I need to become more comfortable thinking about real people, who I know, as potentially beddable. I have this taboo about fantasizing about people I know. That’s in large part why I find it so hard to say whether I’m attracted to someone or not. And I guess I can also educate myself about what sex, real sex, actually involves. Porn is totally misleading.

 

[hanshansen]

OK, I need more advice. Wise men of this board, please help me.

I've been in a torment of sleeplessness for going on two months, and it's been getting worse. Part of it is that my life is in flux and all the emotional turmoil that's been going on. (Part of it is bad sleep hygiene, that's another story.) But part of it is simple frustration.

Here is the situation I am in now. With a long lag, I discovered increasing physical feelings for this person. They continued to grow after we both decided to call things off at that level. I got to spend one night with him and would so like to do that again, and it's not going to happen. At this stage the idea of doing that with someone else doesn't appeal to me. Porn doesn't appeal to me. Last night I essentially gave in and thought back over that night and imagined a continuation of it and found some release that way.

Am I 'allowed' to do that, if I'm supposed to be moving on? The alternative was to lie in bed awake and miserable.

How do you deal with being friends with someone who you had a sexual experience with and who you had/have physical feelings for? Are the feelings supposed to die? Or can you acknowledge them without acting on them? How do you give those feelings to other people as well in that state? How do you deal with it when the person you like moves on to other people?

In a way, what I'm describing here is almost a carbon copy of what happened after I discovered I was in fact attracted to a guy I met on a dating site (see my previous thread). But what happened there is that I realised he didn't really like me and that he was (too) self-absorbed and shallow. You could say that I discovered his soul wasn't beautiful enough. The physical attraction died overnight, but so did the desire for friendship. We're acquainitances.

That hasn't happened here. I still think this guy has a beautiful soul. The emotional attraction is still there. And I don't know what to do with the physical feelings. I'm going to see him at a public lecture tomorrow and I don't know how I'll react.

There's a more general question lurking in here. My default position is that I'm not supposed to be attracted to other people until they give me permission to, by showing off (to me , not just to others), flirting, hitting on me etc. I guess this is because I think unreciprocated attractions are demeaning to me and embarrassing to the target, and I'm afraid that any sexual tension will make interaction awkward. Is this the right attitude? Here's the bad things it's done. It's made me really repressed - it takes me weeks to discover I'm attracted to someone. It means I only really can imagine myself being with people who I already have a lot of trust and affection for (who I can 'let myself go' with) and then I form these emotional-physical attachments which are very exclusive and incredibly painful to get out of. 'Just sex' or 'casual sex' is a concept that's really alien to me, and it seems to be normal to everyone else, and they seem happier, or at least less frustrated.

 

[KaraBulut]

There's a more general question lurking in here. My default position is that I'm not supposed to be attracted to other people until they give me permission to, by showing off (to me , not just to others), flirting, hitting on me etc. I guess this is because I think unreciprocated attractions are demeaning to me and embarrassing to the target, and I'm afraid that any sexual tension will make interaction awkward. Is this the right attitude?

Take a few moments and ready the other threads in this forum. How many of those threads are asking the question, "How do I meet this guy?".

Basic truth of human interaction: Most people want to know that you like them and think they are okay.

Second basic truth of human interaction: A surprising number of people are shy or are afraid of rejection.

So, assuming you are not in a place like NYC, if you always greet people with a smile or hello when you pass them or if you are the first person in a social situation to extend your hand and introduce yourself with a smile, you are giving people the subtle message that you think they are okay. It does not mean that you are flirting or that you are interested in anything sexual- it is just a basic social skill.

Sending people the subtle message that you believe they are okay and that you are open to talking with them is all the entree that people need to strike up a conversation with you. From that point, you can both figure out whether you will remain casual acquaintenances, friends or something else. Until you introduce yourself, you will never know.

 

[hanshansen]

Sending people the subtle message that you believe they are okay and that you are open to talking with them is all the entree that people need to strike up a conversation with you.

OK. Maybe without realising it I sometimes (?) send the message that I'm closed off, because I assume that we have nothing interesting in common.

Regarding my probems 'letting go' of this guy, I spent a fair bit of time with him over the weekend and that reminded me that maybe the ‘fundamentals’ just aren’t that great. That helps, because it’s easier to accept that than to think ‘the fundamentals were wonderful, if only the timing had been better’ etc.

On Friday night after the public lecture we went for a drink and were joined by another friend of his who I already knew from his birthday party. This turned into a sort of pub crawl around various cocktail bars and a sports bar. Then he invited us to join him and some friends to watch the cricket on Saturday, which I ended up doing because I wanted to meet the friends and I hadn't been to a cricket game in years.

At the cricket I was very much out of my element. The other friend couldn’t make it so I didn’t know anyone in the group. I can follow a cricket match but I can’t hold an intelligent conversation about it (I don’t know the players, the stats, I find the jargon confusing ...). This really limited the opportunities for conversation and bonding with the friends. (Should I have felt freer to admit my lack of knowledge and to ask questions ...?) These people (including the guy himself) are all sports crazy. In addition, they’re all very much private sector types (IT and other management, restaurant owner etc.). I’ve never had a proper job in my life (I’m paid by the taxpayer to look at the economy as a whole). Added to this how hung over I was, the blistering heat, the fact that my new contact lenses weren’t working very well ... I’ve had better times. (I guess this is how the intern felt at my wine tasting night.)

The drinks on Friday night went better, we had arguments about economics. He's quite an aggressive and sharp-tongued debater, I had noticed that at the wine night too. However, it was largely a set of conversations between him and me and him and his friend, it didn’t really develop into a proper three-way thing. Also, at the last bar we went to (which I suggested and he wasn't familiar with) he struck up a conversation with the bar owner and we all ended up talking with that guy. I was struck by what smooth operators both he and the barman were. What went through the back of my mind was, ‘isn’t this phony, the barman is paid to be interested in what each of us are doing?’

The guy (I should start calling him ‘my friend’) is also possibly a little more complex than I gave him credit for, he doesn’t relax easily, going from pub to pub he was pretty much racing through the streets.

None of this is a disaster, it just raises question marks. Near the end of the cricket he invited me to his after-party, but I had a pre-booking and couldn’t make it.

As I say, I’m a policy wonk and I guess my natural home is ‘liberal intelligentsia’ (the friends with whom I feel most comfortable come from there). But since the middle of last year I’ve been living and interacting with people who come from deep in the private sector. That’s been really interesting, I’ve learned a little about how things work in IT companies and seen some very unfamiliar outlooks on life, my flatmate has taught me about ‘soft’ and other business skills, and of course he imparted his interest in wine to me. But you do always feel very different, you don’t really understand what it’s like and feel like you’re on the outside looking in, you don’t know whether to feel superior or inferior. In all honesty there are only two of my flatmate’s friends who I would be able to hold really good conversations with without my flatmate present (one of them is a teacher, the other is probably my flatmates 'nerdiest' friend and we share an interest in wine).

With the wrong person (who has too big compatibility anxieties, who doesn’t have the desire to explain and ‘teach’ or find common ground), that can be too big a barrier and you don't end up becoming friends. I don't yet know what will happen in this case.

Do I have too big compatibility anxieties?

 

[Lube]

Wow, you are just over-analyzing everything in your life!

Relax. Enjoy guys.

You're looking for something perfect, but there is no perfection out there.

To answer your up-front question: don't think about 'compatibility' in a detached, analytical way. Basically, don't think about any relationship stuff in that way.

Just fuck and date guys!

Seriously. You have to experience this shit (relationships); you can't just discuss them in a detached way.

I recently had sex with a guy that was just like you. (Hey, is your name...? Just kidding!)

He was very shy and, in his 30's, only had sex with one or two guys. (Poor thing!) He was very insecure, very analytical about everything, convinced himself he didn't need sex or even emotional attachment or touch (hugging, etc.).

I proved him very, very wrong.

I won't give all the gory details (it did take several meetings before we even hugged!), but it basically ended up with him finally trusting me, and when he did, he just opened up like a flower. It was beautiful!

Oh my fucking god, he turned out to be the best damn kisser I have ever experienced! It was almost a religious experience.

In contrast to what he had over-analytically told himself, he needed to hug, he needed to kiss. He was so desperate for affection, attention, and physical contact. It was like a drug. I don't know if he realizes how wrong he was.

We're not dating or anything (I made that very clear from the start), but I'm just trying to show him that if you open up a little bit, there are guys out there that you can trust. You need to find them and enjoy them.

You really need to experience several different guys (emotionally, physically, intellectually, etc.) before you can even begin to really understand what you like (sexually, physically, emotionally, intellectually).

You can debate it in a detached, intellectual way for years, but will never truly understand it until you experience it.

You have to let go once in a while. Sure, you'll get bitten here and there, but that happens to everybody. Move on.

Good luck!

 

[hanshansen]

Yeah, it does read a little Woody-Allenish in the morning ...

 

[Lube]

Yeah, it does read a little Woody-Allenish in the morning ...

Good one!

 

[hanshansen]

A couple of people gave me some interesting ideas today. I'm putting them down for the record, and FYI.

An online friend of mine suggested that I might in fact be seeking refuge in my feelings of unrequited longing, which are, of course, very familiar to me. That's quite a striking perspective. Indulging in them does encourage passivity.

I was talking to my flatmate about some of this stuff (sleeplessness, over-analysis especially during the night) over half a bottle of port (yikes) tonight. He has very erratic sleep patterns, and he said to me that he recognised my propensity to over-analyse in himself. I already knew that he has learned to deal with the sleeplessness by not fighting it - he'll just get up and do some work, read a book etc. and at least feel like he's been productive (rather than the sleeplessness being a productivity drain).

More interestingly, what he said today was: he's stopped trying to understand other people, now he just wants to enjoy their company. He thought that was the biggest shift in his mindset in the last few years, and that he is a far happier person for it.

He said that over time you come to instinctively (more or less pre-consciously) recognise patterns in yourself and others, and make them work for you. I said, surely that was a payoff from all the analysis, but he seemed to agree with the view that it's largely a matter of sufficient accumulated experience.

Another interesting thing. I told him about the cricket. I said that I assumed that people expected you to know everything about cricket and other sports (unlike wine). He said no, he thought that if I'd been totally open about my ignorance (the fact that I was a foreigner, that my parents didn't encourage me to play sport etc.) everybody in that group would have been extremely forthcoming and would have fallen over themselves to share their cricket expertise. Qualifier: he agreed that this applied to the extroverts. (To the extent that I did open up about my lack of knowledge yesterday, I think he was probably right. To the extent that I didn't: missed opportunity .)

He thought this openness to being asked was a distinguishing trait of New Zealanders (if you've seen my profile it's no secret - that's where I live), as opposed to, say, Londoners. Any Kiwis reading this have an opinion on this?

 

[hanshansen]

I've been kicking myself regarding the cricket, for a whole set of reasons. I'm recognising an instance of a behavioural pattern which I know has caused me a huge number of problems (assuming that I'll be exposed to ridicule if I don't know something that every 'normal' and 'well-developed' person knows, and therefore withdrawing); I missed out on a learning opportunity (I really do want to understand the game better); I'm afraid I made a really bad impression on my friend and his friends (timid, introvert, lost cause to sports ...).

I know it was a minor mistake, I'll do things differently the next time I'll go to the cricket with friends.

I think the following is the reason I obsess about these things so much. All the friendships/'relationships' I had until very recently were with people who I could count on seeing again and again: my parents, their friends, classmates, work colleagues, flatmates. If I screwed up, I knew I had the chance to do better next time and regain their trust/affection/approval.

You could say that for years I had the opportunity to learn about interacting with others without any real risk of failure (people I liked dropping out of my life). I never had to learn to deal with that.

Now I've started to get to know people more 'randomly', who I don't see that often and who have the option of no longer being around me if the impression they get from that limited contact wasn't that favourable - so that I don't have the chance of correcting the impression.

The fear of that happening is still very strong.