Ground Zero Mosque -- Should it Be Built?

[philusmc]

Why are you making this a left versus right issue? The majority of Democrats don't support building the Mosque at the current location. You're just dying to make this a partisan issue, while ignoring the fact that both the left and the right oppose this.



- Congressman Mike McMahon (D-NY)



- Congressman Steve Israel (D-NY)



- Congressman Tim Bishop (D-NY)



- Congressman Michael Arcuri (D-NY)

Are those FOUR New York Democrats "right-wing chatterboxes"?

Who made this a fear-mongering issue -- THE REPUBLICANS. Who politicized this issue -- THE REPUBLICANS, and continues to DO SO. The REPUBLICAN PROPAGANDA machine -- FOXnuts, has this issue so ginned up that is pathetic. They are deliberately throwing fire on raw emotions just to win a few points in the political polls or get elected/reelected -- how pathetic.

 

[JB3]

A compromise is in the works to move the mosque/cultural center away from the ground zero site, and the developer apparently is open to it.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/08/17/paterson-king-hope-for-mosque-compromise/

 

[laikaNYC]

Who made this a fear-mongering issue -- THE REPUBLICANS. Who politicized this issue -- THE REPUBLICANS, and continues to DO SO. The REPUBLICAN PROPAGANDA machine -- FOXnuts, has this issue so ginned up that is pathetic. They are deliberately throwing fire on raw emotions just to win a few points in the political polls or get elected/reelected -- how pathetic.

Are you accusing Harry Reid, Congressman Mike McMahon (D-NY), Congressman Steve Israel (D-NY), Congressman Tim Bishop (D-NY), Congressman Michael Arcuri (D-NY), Congressman Jason Altmire (D-PA), among others, of being fear-mongers trying to gain political points?

 

[palemale]

Ignorant fucks politicized this issue and its bipartisan fuckery.

How is it bi-partisan? Because some coward Democrats cave in to the bigotry, it hardly means they politicized it? Ask yourself, who benefits from this upheaval? Perhaps the better question is, who thinks they will benefit from this? Is there a single Democratic office holder who stood to gain when this became an issue? Are there any Democratic office holders who have been fanning the flames on this issue?

(I know, I know, Laika, the CNN pole, the CNN pole. I'm not talking about ordinary Americans, the majority of whom believe the Muslims have the right to build there, even if they think they shouldn't.)

 

[Sausy]

Are you accusing Harry Reid, Congressman Mike McMahon (D-NY), Congressman Steve Israel (D-NY), Congressman Tim Bishop (D-NY), Congressman Michael Arcuri (D-NY), Congressman Jason Altmire (D-PA), among others, of being fear-mongers trying to gain political points?

They would be spineless cowards who have to think of the yahoos,most unfortunately who were allowed to breed and form voting majorities in their district.Every right-thinking left minded MSNBC, New York Times,or alternet blog follower KNOWS that.

 

[Pangelboy]

My Opinion: Conservatives and Republicans are using this as yet another wedge issue to win votes. They do so by demonizing a select ethnic or religious group and whipping up public opposition to them. I have seen no reports that this group has ties to any violent and/or radical Islamic group bent on carrying out any terrorist acts, or any illegal activities whatsoever.

There is no legal basis to deny the group the right to build on the site. So what do the Conservative and Republicans hope to achieve except to whip up bigotry against Muslims in order to win votes?

I totally agree. Some politicians have decided to demonize muslims in order to create FUD in the minds of Americans in order to win votes.

I see no reason why a mosque cannot be built. I disagree with Islam, as I do with almost all organized religion, but I do recognize their right to worship wherever they want and in any way they wish as long as it does not negatively affect the rights of any other citizen. Since no politician or media mouthpiece has proven their assertions that this mosque will negatively affect the citizens of this nation, build away!

I also am tired of the "this will be a slap in the face of the victims of 9/11 families" meme. I found an article about the various reactions of families who lost loved ones in the attacks and they seemed to be mixed. It's not a poll, but it doesn't legitimize the assertion that all of the families who lost someone in the WTC are opposed to the building of this mosque/community center/whatever the hell you want to call it.

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/9-11-families-speak-out-on-ground-zero-muslim-center/19581141

I love the last line:

"This country was founded on the principles of religious freedom for all," he said. "[What] are we doing to start denying that to people? If we start doing that we start dismantling the values this country was founded upon."

 

[laikaNYC]

The director of Al-Arabiya TV (where Obama gave his first Presidential interview):

"Ground Zero Mosque would be ‘Monument’ for Terrorists"

"The Majority of Muslims Do Not Want or Need a Mosque Near Ground Zero"

 

[unclaimedblessing]

We all know that all Moslems are not terrorist extremists,but some are.

We also have our home grown extremists. Is it too far fetched that one or some of them will "retaliate" against this proposed building because of 9/11? They might even feel this building is a monument to the "martyrs" responsible for 9/11.

There has to be a compromise. Few are protesting the right to construct this building, the only issue is the location.

If there is even the remotest possibilty of violence, death or destruction, what's the big deal about building it elswhere and eliminating all the divisiveness?

 

[MoltenRock III]

Few are protesting the right to construct this building, the only issue is the location.

Bullshit!

People are protesting them being built in Tennessee, California, Wisconsin, and other places. Complaining about the "location" in New York, is a ruse. Haters would have had a shit fit no matter where, or why.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html

 

[MercuryJones]

There has to be a compromise.

Here's a perfect compromise: Everyone mind your own business, and everyone live within the law.

 

[Kulindahr]

Building the mosque there will guarantee no more terrorist attacts there.

Hardly. Terrorists mount attacks on mosques in their own countries.

I'm guessing you didn't click on the CNN link I provided you with. You're still ignoring the fact that even Democrats as a majority don't support this.

So Democrats can be bigots, too -- is that your point?

The same city planners that approved the mosque will not give approval to rebuild a greek orthadox church that was destroyed during 911. Its been 9 years they are still trying to get approval. What makes this mosque so special that it supersedes the rebuilding of a church? I'm guessing the city planners were all bribed.

link to that: http://indyposted.com/38342/greek-orthodox-church-at-ground-zero-destroyed-on-911-still-not-rebuilt/

It's easy to believe in the Constitution and equal rights for all until someone says something you disagree with. You cannot possibly deny others their rights, and expect yours will be respected.

To the poster that said, "Just expand another one". What if it was a new gay center? Why would they need a new one, just expand another one. Why does Starbucks need so many places? Why don't they just expand their existing ones? It's America jack! As long as these places of business / worship follow zoning and local laws they should be able to build. PERIOD! No ifs! No ands! No buts!



He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself. ~Thomas Paine

We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. ~Edward R. Murrow

Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. ~Abraham Lincoln

Well said -- all four of you.

The director of Al-Arabiya TV (where Obama gave his first Presidential interview):

"The Majority of Muslims Do Not Want or Need a Mosque Near Ground Zero"

You should give us something relevant instead of just tossing out a link. Like this:

"What the citizens of the U.S. fail to understand is that the battle against the 9/11 terrorists is not their battle. It is a Muslim battle – one whose flames are still raging in more than 20 Muslim countries... I do not think that the majority of Muslims want to build a monument or a place of worship that tomorrow may become a source of pride for the terrorists and their Muslim followers, nor do they want a mosque that will become a shrine for the haters of Islam...


The man is right: this really is their battle, a battle for the heart of their religion. It's our battle only in that it spilled onto us, and we have an obligation to ourselves to defend against any more. But it is not our battle at all to be carried to their soil, giving the impression we have some authority to shape their future. They must shape their future for themselves, yet besides that, the arrogance of acting as though we can tell them what Islam ought to be only fuels the Islamists.

 

[Kulindahr]

It's worth noting the actual name for this place: the Cordoba Center.

Cordoba was a sort of great light in the world of Islam back in the day. Not merely Muslims, but Jews and Christians flourished. In fact, under Islam, "Cordoba plays a pivotal role in the history of Jewish life in the middle ages. In the tenth century it became the seat of Jewish learning, scholarship and culture, gradually eclipsing the Babylonian academies of Sura and Pumbeditha." (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Cordoba.html)

I read that there's an offer from the state of New York to make a land swap, the Manhattan location for some state land elsewhere. I suggest that if this works out, the state should provide land also to and Jewish and Christian organizations interested in that old Cordoba model of peace and prosperity. Let them all build together, and show the world how it was done long ago.

 

[Sausy]

It's worth noting the actual name for this place: the Cordoba Center.

Cordoba was a sort of great light in the world of Islam back in the day. Not merely Muslims, but Jews and Christians flourished. In fact, under Islam, "Cordoba plays a pivotal role in the history of Jewish life in the middle ages. In the tenth century it became the seat of Jewish learning, scholarship and culture, gradually eclipsing the Babylonian academies of Sura and Pumbeditha." (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Cordoba.html)

I read that there's an offer from the state of New York to make a land swap, the Manhattan location for some state land elsewhere. I suggest that if this works out, the state should provide land also to and Jewish and Christian organizations interested in that old Cordoba model of peace and prosperity. Let them all build together, and show the world how it was done long ago.

Your last point I concur with wholeheartedly.Standing with the absolutist defenders I don't.They are stuck in their own definitive agenda.When do they EVER defend a religious organization on any issue?Most people opposed or hesitant about the mosque/Islamic center are hardly raging bigots...the Cordoba Center sounds nice,but we don't know nearly enough about the funding,the less than coherent philosophy of the Imam...too many instances of mosques indoctrinating(including one in my hometown which had associations with some of the key figures masterminding the unsuccessful 1993 bombing attempt).

Muslim leaders have to be far more proactive in showing that the radicals don't speak for a sizable number of Muslims.Those against fundamentalist Islam,and its aggressively radical offshoots have to be more prominent and visible.You're reasonable as far as compared to the overwhelming majority here,and I agree some,a very small actual minority of ultraconservative Christians certainly are bigoted and do not welcome Muslims or anyone really who aren't like them,or at least don't share their faith.At one time they outshined the feudal Christians with their tolerance and openness relative to the times.Maybe I'm wrong,I'm certainly not brilliant by any means but I do enjoy dialogue,not this internet version of "Crossfire" in which we've got people constantly screaming at or over each other and their political boogeymen right and left.

I would love to see some exploration of other perspectives like you tend to...even in disagreement you raely come off as a mere scold or internet political mouthpiece.People can't be wrong or misguided....they have to have the worst motivations,be guided only by the basest or most evil intentions.I see that in people I disagree with,that I respect there is civility and respect for those with different perspectives and the perspectives themselves.Disagreement without always having to wind up disagreeable.There are a number of people I sometimes strongly disagree with who I would nonetheless always have the greatest admiration and appreciation as people.And sometimes they even convince me their thinking on some issue is right,at least worthy of consideration.

I admire the passion of those who post most regularly in this forum,even if I knew I would eventially wind up in a fetal position against the corner sucking my thumb if I stayed on here as much as I did from the beginning.I wonder with the mentally of political warfare here and more and more in our public sphere,how a wonderful friendship like that of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson could be envisioned today,with the 24/7 news cycle and competing blogospheres.I know I'm guilty of it too but it's too petty now.

 

[Sausy]

I'm sorry,please withdraw my previous post this being an on-topic designated thread.

 

[MoltenRock III]

Gay leaders have to be far more proactive in showing that the pedophiles don't speak for a sizable number of gays. Those against pedophilia, and its aggressively radical perverts have to be more prominent and visible. You're reasonable as far as compared to the overwhelming majority here, and I agree some, a very small actual minority of ultraconservative heterosexuals certainly are bigoted and do not welcome gays or anyone really who aren't like them, or at least don't share their sexual orientation.

At one time they outshined the heterosexuals with their tolerance and openness relative to the times. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm certainly not brilliant by any means but I do enjoy dialogue, not this internet version of "Crossfire" in which we've got people constantly screaming at or over each other and their political boogeymen right and left.

***QUOTE FIXED TO REFLECT IF GAYS WERE AT ISSUE VS. MUSLIMS.***

 

[philusmc]

Are you accusing Harry Reid, Congressman Mike McMahon (D-NY), Congressman Steve Israel (D-NY), Congressman Tim Bishop (D-NY), Congressman Michael Arcuri (D-NY), Congressman Jason Altmire (D-PA), among others, of being fear-mongers trying to gain political points?

No arseWAD, I thought I was quite clear -- the REPUBLICANS has this all ginned up all for petty political reasons. Just like they ginned up the health care debate and fought to block the passage of that billed andevery other piece of legislation that went through congress/senate in the last 18 months. The REPUBLICANS are slimy liars of creatures who prey on the vunerable and weak, and yes the ignorant. REPUBLICANS could never win a debate on any issue fairly, they always have to resort to hate, fear, and gut-throat tactics to get even one vote.

 

[Just_Believe18]

There already is a Mosque 4 blocks away from Ground Zero that has been there for 40 years. No one has ever complained about it, and anyone who wants to make a big deal out of a 2 block difference is shaming the U.S. Constitution. People have the right, guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution to build a place of worship for their religion. It does not matter if 55% or 99% of Americans oppose this cultural center. The Constitution guarantees them the right! I am ashamed at my fellow citizens for not recognizing this fundamental fact.

A majority of Americans were against integration in the South. A majority of Americans didn't believe in interracial marriages. A majority of Americans do not believe in equal rights for homosexuals. Just because a majority believes a certain way, it does not justify discrimination.

 

[unclaimedblessing]

Although I support the Constitution and personally feel anyone has the right to erect a place of worship, the Constitution was largely ignored for the 8 years of the Bush administration. Cheney even referred to it as just s piece of paper.

This particular controversy is not just going to go away and everyone will join hands and sing Kumbaya.

Yes, many politicians are using the issue to their perceived career advantage, but many average citizens also have issues with it.

It would be better to eliminate a potentially volatile catalyst than deal with the aftermath. We have enough loonies that take the whole concept personlly and seriously.

 

[rareboy]

We have enough loonies that take the whole concept personlly and seriously.

But where does capitulation end?

Our modern North American societies are built upon the precept of Common Law and precedent.


Why don't the people of the US realize that if the mosque/community centre isn't built, the terrorists have won?

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm sorry,please withdraw my previous post this being an on-topic designated thread.

I think it's on-topic, Sausy: you talk about the way people are arguing about whether the Cordoba Center should be built, and that's an important aspect of addressing the question. If the answers are hysteria-based, that has to be examined in making an assessment -- as a judge here once pointed out to prospective jurors, an emotion-based argument is no argument at all.