Ground Zero Mosque -- Should it Be Built?

[Kulindahr]

This is the topic du jour for conservatives now, to rile up the populace to get out and vote. Just a few weeks ago it was all about jobs. A few weeks from now they'll come up with some other non-issue to stir up fake outrage and keep on doing this until the elections in November.

It's pathetic and demented that they continue to race-bait, but they historically have done that. They take a group of people, and stir up controversy and demagogue all over the media.

If they didn't have Muslims, they would focus on homosexuals, or communists, or whomever. Wasn't gay marriage (hey, that's you and me) an election issue just two years ago? Republicans realize they can't win elections on the issues, so they try to scare people into voting. What are their solutions to problems right now except for tax cuts for the rich? They know that's not an effective campaign issue to change the subject, quick!

It's all about fear: who the masses will fear the most at the moment.

We're just not as scary as Muslims just now.

 

[CowboyBob]

We're just not as scary as Muslims just now.

Oh? Think again:

 

[JB3]

I heard a good commentary on this issue last night on my local news.

The gist of it was this: The developer and group have the right to build their community center wherever they get approval to do so. We have religious freedom in this country, and no group or individual should be denied that right because it makes someone uncomfortable.

BUT, just because this group has the right to build their center doesn't mean that its the right thing to do. They need to understand that building so close will make survivors and the loved ones of people killed in the attacks uncomfortable. On the flip side, those loved ones also need to understand that Islam is not a violent religion, and that those that attacked on 9/11 were radicalized and don't represent the vast majority of muslims.

So basically, what's needed is a whole heaping dose of understanding on both sides. Until then, this conversation won't go anywhere.

 

[Kulindahr]

I heard a good commentary on this issue last night on my local news.

The gist of it was this: The developer and group have the right to build their community center wherever they get approval to do so. We have religious freedom in this country, and no group or individual should be denied that right because it makes someone uncomfortable.

BUT, just because this group has the right to build their center doesn't mean that its the right thing to do. They need to understand that building so close will make survivors and the loved ones of people killed in the attacks uncomfortable. On the flip side, those loved ones also need to understand that Islam is not a violent religion, and that those that attacked on 9/11 were radicalized and don't represent the vast majority of muslims.

So basically, what's needed is a whole heaping dose of understanding on both sides. Until then, this conversation won't go anywhere.

 

[bankside]

Understanding the reasons why someone may be uncomfortable is key. And family of a survivor or not, "Because I'm confused between ordinary Muslims and Muslim terrorists" is not enough of a reason to give them the time of day, let alone move a community centre. Moving it would be the wrong thing to do. That's the only outcome of this "dialogue."

 

[JB3]

Understanding the reasons why someone may be uncomfortable is key. And family of a survivor or not, "Because I'm confused between ordinary Muslims and Muslim terrorists" is not enough of a reason to give them the time of day, let alone move a community centre. Moving it would be the wrong thing to do. That's the only outcome of this "dialogue."

I don't agree that moving it would be the wrong thing to do, and I don't agree with the conclusions you draw. Its telling that some would rather by sympathetic and understanding towards the developers and organization (as they should be), and not be understanding and sympathetic towards the 9/11 families. The fact that you think that the only outcome possible is the center staying tells me that you clearly have not considered the issue from both sides and don't really understand the reasons behind the stances.

What's missing, as I said, in this whole thing is understanding between everyone involved.

 

[said89]

a "muslim community center" is not a mosque. there's nothing wrong with a mosque imo since you find churches at almost each and every corner. there's a reason people believe in whatever they believe in and who am i to say no to them when their only aim is believing?

on the other hand - almost 10 years later there's still this controversy going around having dumb people speculating over how it all may have happened in the name of allah, which is beyond ridiculous cause I've never heard people judging jesus christ because of something the westboro church has done.

so yes, i don't have anything against that idea but i personally wouldn't do it there, just because of the overall bad reaction and speculations that would result from doing it - that's not something i'd want my religion to go through (if i was them).

but if they're really into their idea and want to make this happen no matter what - why not, let them do it and keep an eye (or two) on them - just like you'd do with anything else that has to do with religion.

 

[MoltenRock III]

Last night, on the day the USA was removing its last combat troops, MSNBC covered it live and from Iraq for about 3 hours. Fox News didn't go to Iraq, and only spent 10 minutes on it, vs. 45 minutes dedicated to the Islamic community center.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5grqFaSvvrDUJ6Bw4sCld2iuMhbegD9HMS1KO0

Pretty telling isn't it?

 

[Zeno Lorea]

Muslims are no more responsible for 9/11 than protestants are responsible for the Spanish Inquisition.

To consider every muslim a jihadist is like considering every christian a Jehova's witness, or every American a Klansman.

 

[MoltenRock III]

Flashback to August last year, remember? Remember all the people riled up by FOX & Frauds about healthcare? And what do you hear now? Nada. Nothing. Zip. on the healthcare issue. Why? Because it passed.

This is the August hate issue FOX and Frauds have found generates enough hate and anger to keep stoking the fear. In 3 or 4 months these haters won't even remember the issue, because they'll be hating something else. They love to be angry, and love to vent their hate.

 

[philusmc]

And it takes someone pathologically partisan to go laika's route.

I don't identify as a liberal or as a Democrat, and even if I did I'd make up my own mind on the merits of the case. So I don't give a fuck what Harry Reid or anyone else says.

Someone like laika or pixie who are only here to take sides in partisan issues (which to their eyes is every issue) could never understand that.

Laika only chimes in to stir the pot with no real desire for honest debate. Fear-mongers have a limited mental capacity taking their talking points straight from foxnuts. I've not seen one yet who can over the slightest agreement on anything. If you say the sky is blue, they will denounce you in someway and go about convincing their viewers that it is actually red or something else. And they will keep repeating that over and over and finally the foxnut viewers (and mainstream media) start believing that the sky is actually red or at least we should have some compromise on it. That's their pathetic and harmful tactics.

 

[philusmc]

Bob, you still haven't gotten it through your through your head that both Republican and Democratic voters, as a majority, are against the proposed location. Your charges of race-baiting are about as phony as a three-dollar-bill

Why should the mosque location be changed? Don't they have the constitutional right to build it or is this where the right nuts want to dictate what is or isn't constitutional. The constitution is not up for "polling". I don't give a rat's behind if 70% or whatever think the mosque should be relocated. So what - most of that is because of the foxnuts constant misinformation about this issue. Foxnuts have made the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf out to be nothing short of a terriorist. This is the same man that President GW relied on. Islam is an AMERICAN RELIGION. Let's quit denying them their constitutional rights.

Ted Olson - republican and who lost his wife in the 9/11 attacks supports the mosque being built at it's proposed location. I single him out only because of his prominence and obvious vested interest in the issue. And others who lost family and friends in the 9/11 attacks also support the mosque being built. Why arent' their voices being heard? Part of the right nut polling?

Aside from all the clammer about this mosque, let's not trample on our constitution, yet let us respect and honor it. Let us embrace diversity and all the precious freedoms that we have.

 

[MercuryJones]

Its telling that some would rather by sympathetic and understanding towards the developers and organization (as they should be), and not be understanding and sympathetic towards the 9/11 families.

Which 911 Families? Some oppose it, some don't.

 

[MoltenRock III]

Notice none of the wingnuts have come out and stated clearly what the think the President or Congress should do. They are just bitching about this ginned up issue.

I'm willing to bet over 50% of them don't even believe the tripe they are posting/saying, but it's a way to attack the President and Democrats and the Constitution be damned if they can score a political point.

 

[Kulindahr]

Last night, on the day the USA was removing its last combat troops, MSNBC covered it live and from Iraq for about 3 hours. Fox News didn't go to Iraq, and only spent 10 minutes on it, vs. 45 minutes dedicated to the Islamic community center.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5grqFaSvvrDUJ6Bw4sCld2iuMhbegD9HMS1KO0

Pretty telling isn't it?

One could interpret that as arising from MSNBC's function being to instill the propaganda of the government by helping brainwash the public into believing that we're all done over there, and Fox not thinking that was its job, so instead it reported on something people are talking about a lot.

 

[Kulindahr]

Why should the mosque location be changed? Don't they have the constitutional right to build it or is this where the right nuts want to dictate what is or isn't constitutional. The constitution is not up for "polling". I don't give a rat's behind if 70% or whatever think the mosque should be relocated. So what - most of that is because of the foxnuts constant misinformation about this issue. Foxnuts have made the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf out to be nothing short of a terriorist. This is the same man that President GW relied on. Islam is an AMERICAN RELIGION. Let's quit denying them their constitutional rights.

Ted Olson - republican and who lost his wife in the 9/11 attacks supports the mosque being built at it's proposed location. I single him out only because of his prominence and obvious vested interest in the issue. And others who lost family and friends in the 9/11 attacks also support the mosque being built. Why arent' their voices being heard? Part of the right nut polling?

Aside from all the clammer about this mosque, let's not trample on our constitution, yet let us respect and honor it. Let us embrace diversity and all the precious freedoms that we have.

I'll make a comparison with freedom of expression.

According to the Oregon State Supreme Court, public nudity is covered under freedom of expression. I can, under the constitution, go naked on the beach, in the park, driving my car, painting my house, even shopping.

So -- I get to a swimming hole, and there are three families with little kids there already. Do I just strip down and charge in?

 

[Kulindahr]

There were many Muslims killed on 9/11 - the World Trade Center was just that. Home to companies from many countries. Not only that, but there were many Muslim First Responders (Fire and Police Depts.)that were killed in the attack as well.
Can their feelings of grief and loss so easily be discounted? We are all Americans, no matter what our faith, or lack thereof. The constitution is supposed to protect us from mob rule, isn't it?

That's another good point. Now fit it into my swimming hole illustration.

 

[MoltenRock III]

One could interpret that as arising from MSNBC's function being to instill the propaganda of the government by helping brainwash the public into believing that we're all done over there, and Fox not thinking that was its job, so instead it reported on something people are talking about a lot.

Or, rather than pandering to the unwashed masses, the traditional role of the media is to educate viewers on the world around them.

 

[SuperPsyze]

There's one point that people seem to be missing. Everyone is saying that building a mosque in the are is an insult to the families of the 9/11 victims, but what about the Muslim families of the 9/11 victims?

Yes, I'm fairly certain that Muslims who worked at the World Trade Center died in the attack as well. How can we move the community center "out of respect" for some of the victims, and arbitrarily say that other victims don't count and don't deserve respect?

The fact that this entire discussion even exists is an insult to these families, and an insult to freedoms we live and die for.

 

[Kulindahr]

With thanks to MolterRock, from another thread -- this is a "must watch!" for anyone on this topic. Pay special attention to the final part, starting about 7:06:



http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-19-2010/extremist-makeover---homeland-edition