Guns in bars and nightclubs

[TX-Beau]

Being a clash between gangs, the location on that one is irrelevant. It could have been at a city park and would have gone down the same way, given the gangs involved.

And there is information suggesting that the police actually triggered it -- not enough information to clinch it either way, but since police are trained to lie as part of their job, I'm not buying their testimonies at all.

Right, because that wasn't about guns in bars at all, they would just have gone elsewhere and shot up a park. WAIT! It was the po-lice!!!!!!

Please.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Just pointing out, Donald Trump is saying this exact same thing right now.

I suppose all his other ideas are insane and just this one is dead on.

 

[vidarr]

^ Trump has now redacted his statement, saying he meant the guards being armed and not patrons.. Though you can obviously tell that's not what he means if you hear it.

Guard were armed in the case of Orlando. Unfortunately it only slowed down the killer and did not stop him.
Really though, suggesting guns and alcohol can safely mix.. why do we have DUI laws then?

 

[xbuzzerx]

^ Trump has now redacted his statement, saying he meant the guards being armed and not patrons.. Though you can obviously tell that's not what he means if you hear it.

Guard were armed in the case of Orlando. Unfortunately it only slowed down the killer and did not stop him.
Really though, suggesting guns and alcohol can safely mix.. why do we have DUI laws then?

The incident with the shooter on the military base should have put to bed the stupid argument anyway that just having armed people around will stop these incidents. They're all too little, too late, and most importantly too unreliable measures proposed about what we do about the barnyard door after the animals have already left the barn.

 

[jockofstrap]

Not the best mix of guns in bars.

 

[Kulindahr]

I have no problem with having well trained, armed guards in a bar or club. I have a big problem with just anyone carrying a gun into a club or bar. Gun carrying patrons are more likely to be taken unaware and either shoot too late or shoot the wrong person(s). Paid guards who are always "on the alert" would make me feel a lot more comfortable than having just anyone carry a gun. Some people use poor judgement or have bad tempers. Give them a gun and they will shoot the bartender if their mixed drink isn't to their liking, or shoot their dick off trying to get the gun out of the holster.

Statistically, armed citizens shoot the wrong person less often than cops. I've never seen any figures for security guards, but my guess is that their error rate would be close to that of armed citizens, perhaps close enough to be statistically zero. But the real problem with armed guards is that they are targets if they're in any kind of uniform at all.

Most people who carry a gun are also always on the alert -- it's a standard topic of discussion on gun boards, and the general opinion tends to be that if you can't be alert all the time, don't carry. Of course there's the question of just how alert -- enough to spot a bad guy before he acts? enough to recognize a bad situation and know what to do? (hint: the first move is not "Draw and shoot", it's "Seek cover and assess the situation". [This, BTW, is why I don't carry at the moment; between my anxiety disorder and the occasional pain med, I can't count on being properly alert.]

As for "shoot[ing] the bartender", it just doesn't happen: most states allow guns in bars now, and if shooting a bartender for as silly a reason as you stated would be in the news.

As for someone shooting himself while drawing, police lead the score on that one (though that could be an artifact founded on the fact that police have to report getting shot, regardless of who did it); indeed four out of five times when an officer gets shot, he did it himself (which is probably just the same as with regular citizens) [note: that's "accidental" shootings, not suicides]. (Just for the information's sake, a recent study by gun accessory manufacturers found that the biggest factor in people shooting themselves while drawing is having a cheap holster such that the gun doesn't come out smoothly, leading to the trigger finger going where it doesn't belong, i.e. on the trigger, as the person instinctively grabs for a better grip.)

 

[TX-Beau]

And where exactly did you get all of these statistics? Ted Nugent again?

 

[Kulindahr]

The OP mentioned Tennessee as one of the states that allows guns in bars . . .

I live in Nashville and must clear the air here. While state law does allow people to carry a gun inside an establishment that serves alcohol, it is up to the establishment if they will allow guns. I can't think of a single bar in Nashville that allows you to carry a gun inside, they all have clearly marked by the doors a big sign that says no guns allowed. So while our law says "guns are allowed in bars" the real world practice could not be further from the truth thank goodness.

As far as guns in bars, do we want our bars to be like a scene from some Clint Eastwood or John Wayne western??? Guns and booze do not mix, booze inhibits people's decision making abilities and can amplify underlying violent personalities and tendencies in some people. Now I am all about having very well trained and armed security guards at our bars though, as long as they aren't drinking.

That's a number I can't find -- how many bars actually allow guns, if they get to choose.

To depart from my usual practice and go with opinion, if I owned a bar there would be gun lockers right by the coat check, and patrons would either check their weapons (guns, knives, knitting needles) and get a key or get a stamp on the wrist that indicates "No alcohol". That goes against the available statistics, which suggest there's no actual danger, but I'm also a "guns and alcohol don't mix" type (along with everyone I've ever gone shooting with, the moment an alcohol container is opened, shooting is over [for at least that person; usually for everyone]).

 

[TX-Beau]

That's a number I can't find -- how many bars actually allow guns, if they get to choose.

To depart from my usual practice and go with opinion, if I owned a bar there would be gun lockers right by the coat check, and patrons would either check their weapons (guns, knives, knitting needles) and get a key or get a stamp on the wrist that indicates "No alcohol". That goes against the available statistics, which suggest there's no actual danger, but I'm also a "guns and alcohol don't mix" type (along with everyone I've ever gone shooting with, the moment an alcohol container is opened, shooting is over [for at least that person; usually for everyone]).

You are a "guns and alcohol don't mix type" when you're hunting, but see no problem with people in bars having guns?

Curiouser and curiouser...

 

[Kulindahr]

^Are searches made of customers when entering a gay bar in Tennessee to ensure the customer is not carrying a concealed weapon?

If not, and state law permits the carrying of guns inside a bar serving alcohol, the matter remains somewhere in the twilight zone.

I have to wonder about that: a number of states allow guns in bars but specify no alcohol consumption. If patrons have concealed carry licenses/permits, how do the bartenders know not to serve them?

There are bars which have metal detectors built into the entrance passage; other than that, yeah, how do they tell?

 

[Kulindahr]

It's entirely relevant your "source" is fucking Ted Nugent, some gun crazy liar and the NRA.

False on all counts.

 

[TX-Beau]

False on all counts.

Neener neener...

There.

Now WHERE ARE YOUR NUMBERS COMING FROM?

I think I'd like to see the study that showed civilians with guns are better shots than Cops with guns. I can't find it on google, where oh where might it be?

 

[TX-Beau]

There are plenty of gun zealots out there saying this surely one of you can point to the actual research.

- - - Updated - - -

This popped right out of my browser while looking.

https://sonsoflibertygunworks.com/collections/all

 

[Kulindahr]

Right, because that wasn't about guns in bars at all, they would just have gone elsewhere and shot up a park. WAIT! It was the po-lice!!!!!!

Please.

The location was irrelevant; hardly anyone, according to the record, had had anything to drink before it started. SO the critical element of being at a bar wasn't a factor.

 

[Kulindahr]

^ Trump has now redacted his statement, saying he meant the guards being armed and not patrons.. Though you can obviously tell that's not what he means if you hear it.

Guard were armed in the case of Orlando. Unfortunately it only slowed down the killer and did not stop him.
Really though, suggesting guns and alcohol can safely mix.. why do we have DUI laws then?

When a killer can tell who the guard is, the guard is just a target. When a killer is as well-trained as this animal was, all a guard in uniform can hope to do is slow him down.

If several staff had been armed, and were "wired" with earpieces as I've seen at a couple of large bars, they wouldn't have been obvious targets and would have been able to communicate and work together. That would have given a good chance of taking down the killer; communications are important.

 

[Kulindahr]

The incident with the shooter on the military base should have put to bed the stupid argument anyway that just having armed people around will stop these incidents. They're all too little, too late, and most importantly too unreliable measures proposed about what we do about the barnyard door after the animals have already left the barn.

Military bases, up until the couple of shootings on some recently, have been gun-free zones.

 

[Kulindahr]

Neener neener...

There.

Now WHERE ARE YOUR NUMBERS COMING FROM?

I think I'd like to see the study that showed civilians with guns are better shots than Cops with guns. I can't find it on google, where oh where might it be?

I've never heard of such a study. Where did you get this one?

 

[TX-Beau]

[Quoted Post Removed]

"...I know you are but what am I..."

?

I believe that's game, set, and match. The only thing I found supporting YOUR assertion, was some kind of unsupported and undocumented meme that because people with handguns are somehow more "trained" (also unsupported) than Cops that must mean they are better shots.

Is it true? NO ONE ACTUALLY KNOWS.

Which is totally pointless anyway because being able to target shoot does not provide the kind of training necessary to act decisively and positively in a live fire situation.

 

[Aron9000]

^Are searches made of customers when entering a gay bar in Tennessee to ensure the customer is not carrying a concealed weapon?

If not, and state law permits the carrying of guns inside a bar serving alcohol, the matter remains somewhere in the twilight zone.

The law is actually very clearly written. If somebody walks into a bar with a concealed handgun and there is a sign on the door saying weapons are not allowed, that person is in violation of the law and if they were arrested would face a number of charges. It really is non-issue here, guns still are not allowed in bars and nobody dares bring one into a bar because of the legal implications and it would cause a scene with the cops being called and people flipping out.

I feel safe despite our silly law that was issued as an obvious way to solicit votes for all the rednecks out in the hollars. It was basically a way for our Republican state legislature to state they are pro gun, because the few Democrats in our legislature obviously opposed the bill, so it was another way for the Republicans to demonize the Democrats(the Democrats want to take your guns!!!!) and strengthen their stranglehold on state politics.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Military bases, up until the couple of shootings on some recently, have been gun-free zones.

They weren't in the base shooting last year. He shot several armed men on duty and took their weapons.

That base should have been 100% safe, isn't that what you're busily telling us?