Have you ever done 'black face'?

[Latimer]

Too much for me to read just now in the following attachment, but as some of you may know, performed in or out of "yellowface" and with or without Asian actors, productions of late of Gilbert and Sullivan's "Mikado" are the source of controversy. A few years ago Berkeley Rep decided to cancel its production after a major bruhaha, and some companies have decided to turn the Japanese characters into Italian ones.

https://www.amazon.com/DK-Eyewitnes...71545/ref=asc_df_1465471545/?tag=hyprod-20&li

While all of this is going on race-blind casting is the norm in opera, with Black and Asian singers routinely taking parts written for white characters.

 

[NotHardUp1]

While all of this is going on race-blind casting is the norm in opera, with Black and Asian singers routinely taking parts written for white characters.

Sadly, true, for a character cannot convincingly play a geisha or another distinctively ethnic character without either makeup or a convincing mask. The same is true for dramatic actors with accents.

On my death bed I will yet regret going to see Checkov's Uncle Vanya some 20 years ago or more in San Francisco. The role of Uncle Vanya was acted by a heavy set middle aged black actor with an atrocious Detroit accent. There was no way in the world to not hear it, to suspend disbelief willingly, while his niece was played by a platinum blonde young pale white actress.

The incongruities constantly upstaged the plot and the play. It was about as Russian as a pack of Fruit Stripe gum.

 

[Latimer]

Early last summer I was on an Air France flight from Paris to Los Angeles and chose to watch "At Eternity's Gate", Julian Schnabel's film on Vincent Van Gogh. I had recently been in Arles and Saint-Remy, where most of the movie is set, and had visited the monastery hospital of Saint Paul de Mausole, the Santiago de Compostela of the cult of Van Gogh. I had heard and read much praise for the movie, and thought it appropriate to watch the film on my way home. The film was available in its original English as well as a French dubbed version. As I watched, Dafoe's harsh, gritty American accent seemed entirely wrong for his character, and so I quickly switched to the French version. It was--after all--set in France, the characters were largely French, the actors were often French. I found the dubbed version perfect. I loved the dubbed version, and don't think I would have felt as passionately about the film had I seen it in English--primarily because of Dafoe's voice.


Unfortunately, I am unable to find a French dubbed version online. The French trailer is in English with French subtitles:

https://www.vangoghroute.com/france/saint-remy-de-provence/

 

[mcbrion]

Would there be such uproar for a black person whiting up? Or is racism only one way?

Yes, at least in this country. Racism comes from a position of POWER, thereby denying the inalienable rights of those who are also its citizens. Since Blacks' dislike of Whites is based on 300 years of brutal, heinous history, and ALSO, since Blacks are not in positions of power to curtail the rights of Whites, it is more correct to say Blacks can be bigots.
But I needn't tell you about that, with the treatment of the Aborigines being a particularly ugly part of your own history, do I? I remember when I was in Australia (I appear to be Black, and definitely American), I got an earful on that subject, but that's due to my asking about it.
So, until Blacks are running the country, and turn away Whites vote at the voting booth, "racism" doesn't cut it. There's even a story in today's Washington Post where the Blacks are challenging the White power structure about access to voting rights.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...18e880-ca69-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html

 

[mcbrion]

Sadly, true, for a character cannot convincingly play a geisha or another distinctively ethnic character without either makeup or a convincing mask. The same is true for dramatic actors with accents.

On my death bed I will yet regret going to see Checkov's Uncle Vanya some 20 years ago or more in San Francisco. The role of Uncle Vanya was acted by a heavy set middle aged black actor with an atrocious Detroit accent. There was no way in the world to not hear it, to suspend disbelief willingly, while his niece was played by a platinum blonde young pale white actress.

What about accents?

Is doing an Indian accent for comic effect considered offensive in Great Britain? I've heard it is. A Caribbean accent? What about a Glaswegian accent? American? French? There's a very funny Fawlty Towers episode in which a Brit plays an obnoxious American with an obnoxious American accent. Should this be offensive to a Yank? To anyone?

My Italian tutor--who is a (very handsome!) Sephardic Jew whose parents emigrated from Spanish Morocco to Israel, and who grew up in the US and Israel before living in Argentina, Brazil and Italy--does very wicked accents and imitations of stereotypical Israelis, Argentines, Brazilians, Spaniards, Frenchmen, Italians and Americans. He can be very funny. Is he being offensive when he does these accents? Is he "allowed" to do Israelis and Americans because he is Israeli and American? Last week--as an exercise--he asked me to try speaking English with stereotypical "Italian accent" and intonation, and Italian and French with a stereotypical "American accent" and intonation. I didn't do a good job attempting any of them.

The incongruities constantly upstaged the plot and the play. It was about as Russian as a pack of Fruit Stripe gum.

Theatre exists apart from real life. Things that would offend in real life, are less offensive on stage. How many White actors have played Othello? A ZILLION.
As for your experience in SF, that's ONE play. I saw dozens of plays in San Francisco, some with characters with unconvincing accents and some doing a good job. One of the versions of 'A Christmas Carol' had a Black woman playing Bob Crahchit's wife. It required NO makeup or anything else of her being visually changed.
And opera is different than almost any other theatre type. Cross-casting has been going on since the beginning of the stage. Nearly EVERYone who has played Cio-Cio-San (Madame Butterly) has been White (except for Leontyne Price). What's your point?

 

[Latimer]

I pretty much agree regarding theater (a Black Blanche but a white Stella and a white Stanley? Wilson's and Hansberry's pieces performed by mixed racial ensembles?) but I totally agree regarding opera, which is to say that if a Chinese soprano can sing an Ethiopian princess in Aida (He Hui) at the Met, and no one bats an eye, then no one should object when a white Brit (take your pick) plays Japanese in Mikado. By the way, I've seen both a Korean and a Chinese soprano sing Butterfly, but never a Japanese. (And hard to imagine that the new West Side Story movie with an Hispanic Maria and [I presume] an all Hispanic group of Jets, will be better than a Russian-American Maria (Natalie Wood) and a mixed group of Jets (Greek-American George Chakiris…). Different to be sure, but not better.

Interesting piece in the NYT regarding Porgy and Bess and race. The Gershwins required and their estate continues to require (ask?) that all cast members be Black:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/arts/music/porgy-bess-gershwin-metropolitan-opera.html

The exception:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/26/arts/music/hungary-viktor-orban-trump-opera.html?module=inline

 

[mcbrion]

I pretty much agree regarding theater (a Black Blanche but a white Stella and a white Stanley? Wilson's and Hansberry's pieces performed by mixed racial ensembles?) but I totally agree regarding opera, which is to say that if a Chinese soprano can sing an Ethiopian princess in Aida (He Hui) at the Met, and no one bats an eye, then no one should object when a white Brit (take your pick) plays Japanese in Mikado. By the way, I've seen both a Korean and a Chinese soprano sing Butterfly, but never a Japanese. (And hard to imagine that the new West Side Story movie with an Hispanic Maria and [I presume] an all Hispanic group of Jets, will be better than a Russian-American Maria (Natalie Wood) and a mixed group of Jets (Greek-American George Chakiris…). Different to be sure, but not better.

Interesting piece in the NYT regarding Porgy and Bess and race. The Gershwins required and their estate continues to require (ask?) that all cast members be Black:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/arts/music/porgy-bess-gershwin-metropolitan-opera.html

The exception:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/26/arts/music/hungary-viktor-orban-trump-opera.html?module=inline

The Gershwins wrote "Porgy and Bess" specifically FOR a Black cast (they were Jewish: they knew about discrimination) and apparently, they want to keep it "pure". I can't think of any other reason. I'm hardly the last word on that subject, but it doesn't require a great deal of logic (or a rocket scientist) to understand their reasoning.

 

[HoodedRat]

Even dogs are doing it these days.

 

[mcbrion]

Even dogs are doing it these days.

Awwww... a little feller THAT cute gets a pass.

 

[Vannie]

View attachment 1347410

 

[Alistair]

View attachment 1347410

Really? I'm blocking you!

 

[Latimer]

Trudeau's fall appears almost mythic, like the gods of fame are punishing him for his incredible hubris and arrogance. I can't wait to see what they have in store for Trump. This should be good.

Wait! Here's a laudatory article about Trudeau from the Atlantic: Kept 92% of his promises! Childhood poverty down! 3% growth rate! OK so he treated a state tour of India as a fancy-dress ball. None of us is perfect:

tps://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/trudeaus-progressive-style/599203/