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Have you ever wondered why the teabaggers weren't treated like OWS people?

Elitism? How is that? I don't see what is elitist about my response? I stand with the people.

We need to tax the rich substantially more, and capital gains need to be taxed more then the rest.

He is saying the situation is elitism. You certainly are prone to feeling attacked? Paranoid much?

I agree kill off Cap Gains and juts make it all income. And tax every fucking bit of it.
 
Oh yes... now this guy has to attack California, which is still responsible for practically funding Southern states. California has passed a balanced budget and has a governor who means business. Typical reactionary response.

The states that are the most in trouble financially are in the South. Open your eyes!

Also I must remind you, California is one of the states with the greatest ability to bounce back from the crisis, while the Southern States will be hurting the most.

SInce you didnt read it and are just defending the place you live.

Like Vallejo, Los Angeles is suffering from weak revenue at the same time the cost of its pensions and other retirement benefits are rising. Former Mayor Richard Riordan said those factors put the government of the second largest U.S. city on track to declare bankruptcy between now and 2014.

The State balanced the budget by removing funds from cities. The cities at the same time increases their compensation of employees as the economy boomed. Now with record foreclosure and low revenues in the city coffers they are still stuck with high employee cost. Read the vanity fair piece. It definitely illuminates the problem.

SO Cali is on the track to recovery but not the southern corrupt states. I wonder where you can get a job more readily? http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm
 
Elitism? How is that? I don't see what is elitist about my response? I stand with the people.

We need to tax the rich substantially more, and capital gains need to be taxed more then the rest.

How can you stand with the people when you plainly don't trust them to make their own decisions? when you want directions handed down form a central authority rather than letting the people who are closer to the problems solve them?


As for taxes, just dump capital gains in with the rest -- the rich will automatically pay more.

Oh -- and return to the pre-Reagan tax rates, before the tax structure started moving wealth upward.
 
Back to our regularly scheduled program ......

Tea Party Movement and OWS couldn't be more diff

The former had a specific goal/mission and actually accomplished it via elections and being part of the system

And they accomplished it w/o disturbing the lives of their fellow citizens save for those at MSNBC ;)

The latter might have good intentions but that's about it

The latter hurts their own more than they help - by taking up public space and living/occupying there - hurting local business - hurting tourism - stopping traffic - etc.

they have no real desire to be part of the process

the tea party was treated shabbily by the press who called them racists, etc.

OWS is given a free pass by the media - for their actions - because the media for the most part agrees with their primary beef "wall st/banks are bad"

so not sure why LL is laying this mess on a thread

but it's actually the opposite

bye bye (John McLaughlin of The McGlaughlin Group"
 
^^^ And what again was the Teabaggers' message? Cut taxes and end socialism? Don't taxes pay for their socialism (Medicare)? Shrink government? Medicare liabilities are twice the annual output of the European Union (roughly $26T).

Please tell me what the message was.
 
Do I trust businesses to make good decisions? Do I trust state governments to make good decisions? I want a more cohesive central government, but at the same time one that is less wasteful. If I was in charge the first thing that would get cut is the defense budget... including the F-35 (which I brought up before).

States in this country have done a terrible job at managing their own services.

So you don't trust the people to be in charge of themselves. That's incredibly elitist.
 
^^ he was saying elitism.... I stand corrected.

On California I don't just dump on them for being democratic. That really has very little to do with it.

I do wonder why California voting to trample public employee benefit packages isn't screamed across these boards and all other left leaning outlets of news and blog. What is significantly different about these cuts and Wisconsin and Ohio?

From the outside it looks as if the two major differences were republicans doing the cutting in the two Midwest states and more significantly they tried to fix what caused the issue in the first place.

California sounds a bit like Greece. Public sector jobs rising at ridiculous unsustainable rates.

That is a bit off topic per se because it is more republican treated different than democrat versus tea party being treated different than democrat. But the reality is the result is the same. Ohio and Wisconsin not allowed to fix their issue and California going for it but only in desire. they havent actually cut anything yet.
 
And yet again I stand corrected. The republican governor in Michigan and the rather conservative state of Michigan currently has three cities under Emergency Managers. Yet there appears to be zero public outcry about taking these powers. But god help ya if you do it in Wisconsin and Ohio.



Isn't it interesting that so many cities in the US are failing yet it isn't collectively being reported? You would think it would be huge news.

US cities may have to be bulldozed in order to survive

Can you imagine deciding to bulldoze 40 to 60% of a city just so you can support the rest and restore the housing market to a even level?

That may be the only way. Plus returning land to nature will put the environmentalist on cloud nine.
 
^ Not just cities.

Now that the voters here have once again turned down a proposal that would have financed bringing out roads up to 1975 standards, rural roads that fall apart are going to get ground up back to gravel.

I hope they start with the precincts that voted most heavily against the measure. We've been losing income because tourists have started avoiding the area because the roads are so bad; maybe having their own roads turn to gravel will get the point across.
 
Dude you have some serious misplaced anger issues.

I brought up California because it is in a CURRENT vanity fair piece that makes my point about how Democratic states that are slashing worker benefits ARE NOT getting treated the same way as Republican states doing the same thing.

Then I corrected myself to a degree because Michigan is run by a Republican.

I do still wonder WHY only two states with popular (to the republican party) governors were targeted. I am pretty sure that it is because if it works then that provides a schematic for recovery for the nation.

It doesn't matter though. The fed cut off her feeding tit. The states followed suit and more and more cities will now declare bankruptcy or have emergency managers.

Try to keep up the argument or discussion depending on how you view it. IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU.
 
Oh yes... now this guy has to attack California, which is still responsible for practically funding Southern states. California has passed a balanced budget and has a governor who means business. Typical reactionary response.

The states that are the most in trouble financially are in the South. Open your eyes!

Also I must remind you, California is one of the states with the greatest ability to bounce back from the crisis, while the Southern States will be hurting the most.

What planet do you live on? California has been and continues to be in a financial crisis.

Even with a balanced budget it doesn't make every thing perfect. Many states have balanced budget amendments and they are struggling -- it just forces you to make make cuts.
 
The difference between Tea Party and Occupiers?

Tea Partiers are adults.

Fleabaggers are spoiled kids.
 
The discussion on roles of the federal government brought a chuckle this morning after I read a book my mother-in-law found at a recent yardsale. The book was about the one room school houses in Charles County, MD and began with a discussion on how the educational system had failed because the illiteracy rate was increasing -- 43 more students were found to be illiterate after schooling. The year was 1843! The article went on to call for better teaching and testing with more rigorous oversight of teachers!

Fast forward and our school systems continue to fail. When I was younger, some were not expected to take college prep but, instead, go into manufacturing. Unfortunately, most of those jobs have disappeared to other countries that pay far under any wage that would allow a person to live in this country.

At the recent Republican debate, Romney said we should allow engineers from other countries into ours so that the 30,000 jobs now needing to be filled could be filled; otherwise kick them all out. Why not give full college payments to students capable and willing but who otherwise might not be able to afford it -- from this country? Wouldn't that make more sense?

The differences in the two movements I think can be quickly boiled down to focus. The Tea Party focused like a laser on a particular issue and got their sound bites massaged by folks such as the Koch Brothers who threw tons of money behind the movement. They have been effective at lower the credit rating of this country, polarizing government, and not doing a damn thing about our ballooning debt. They continue to say that spending is a problem -- not revenues -- despite multiple bi-partisan panels studying the situation. All of the bi-partisan commissions have found you CANNOT cut your way out of the current budget mess. Without discussion of revenues, it is simply impossible unless you want to eliminate Medicare, Social Security, and/or defense.

As for other cabinet positions, I think that the Department of Education should focus more on block grants to states that do develop comprehensive and fair plans while eliminating funds to those that espouse religious beliefs upon students. It should greatly reduce the costs of running the department which would instead focus on outcomes, not inputs as it currently does.

As for the EPA -- I remember all too well when rivers caught fire in this country. I remember the Grand River that ran through my city had no fish other than carp or "suckers." It was basically an open sewer running across Michigan and into Lake Michigan. I remember massive fish die offs at my aunt and uncles cottage on Jordan Lake -- caused by the septic tanks which overflowed into the lake and caused the plant life to explode. The "good ol' days" were not. I've also seen pictures of hundreds of chimneys in my hometown belching black soot and heard the stories of women hanging clothes on the line only to find them blackened by the time they dried. Really want to go back to that?

Because I deal with the federal government, I do believe that a reorganization would be far more beneficial and cost saving. If you want to find funding for EMS or to build a new communication system you think you would go to Homeland Security or FCC, right? Wrong. You'd find those in the Department of Transportation because of studies done decades ago that ultimately resulted in programs being set up to eliminate problems of that day. If you wnat to fix stormwater problems -- you can find funding in more than 60 areas of government!

While I may not agree with everything of the Occupy movement, I find I do agree with their overarching concepts that the rich have bought government and power; you and I likely cannot make much difference anymore. Heck, I couldn't even make a run for Congress because of the costs (and I won't become a prostitute in order to achieve that goal which is largely what politicians now do--sorry to insult the good, hard-working prostitutes though).

Occupy has a right to protest -- it's in that document that the Tea Party likes to wave at 30 second news events. It does not limit the time to 8 to 5 or just during prime time news hour. I have a right to protest at 2 a.m. -- no matter how inconvenient that may be to others. If you are going to set limits on one, how long before we set limits and roll back all the other rights? If you look at what is happening in Russia today, it is exactly that with the masses going happily along wishing for "the good ol' days" to return....
 
Fast forward and our school systems continue to fail. When I was younger, some were not expected to take college prep but, instead, go into manufacturing. Unfortunately, most of those jobs have disappeared to other countries that pay far under any wage that would allow a person to live in this country.

At the recent Republican debate, Romney said we should allow engineers from other countries into ours so that the 30,000 jobs now needing to be filled could be filled; otherwise kick them all out. Why not give full college payments to students capable and willing but who otherwise might not be able to afford it -- from this country? Wouldn't that make more sense?

A national manufacturing representative was on the news last week. He said there were three million jobs unfilled in the U.S. -- welders, joiners, skilled positions of all kinds that used to get filled by graduates of trade schools. Then Bush I and Clinton made the big push for everyone to go to college, and the supply of new people dried up.

The rest of the iceberg is that he also said that for every one of those positions, there would be three jobs on average in support and downline as well. Do the math: that's three million jobs, and nine million more as a result -- twelve million jobs we don't have because of a misguided educational policy.

Romney's right about letting graduate students from other countries stay if they want -- a hefty minority of them actually start businesses here, creating jobs, but when their students visas run out, most of those businesses fail.

The differences in the two movements I think can be quickly boiled down to focus. The Tea Party focused like a laser on a particular issue and got their sound bites massaged by folks such as the Koch Brothers who threw tons of money behind the movement. They have been effective at lower the credit rating of this country, polarizing government, and not doing a damn thing about our ballooning debt. They continue to say that spending is a problem -- not revenues -- despite multiple bi-partisan panels studying the situation. All of the bi-partisan commissions have found you CANNOT cut your way out of the current budget mess. Without discussion of revenues, it is simply impossible unless you want to eliminate Medicare, Social Security, and/or defense.

That's why I say they're not conservatives -- conservatives would raise revenues and only cut fat. These morons are going for not just meat but the jugular. And they're doing it on purpose due to a remark by Reagan about starving the beast -- but Reagan also knew when you had to raise taxes anyway.

As for the EPA -- I remember all too well when rivers caught fire in this country. I remember the Grand River that ran through my city had no fish other than carp or "suckers." It was basically an open sewer running across Michigan and into Lake Michigan. I remember massive fish die offs at my aunt and uncles cottage on Jordan Lake -- caused by the septic tanks which overflowed into the lake and caused the plant life to explode. The "good ol' days" were not. I've also seen pictures of hundreds of chimneys in my hometown belching black soot and heard the stories of women hanging clothes on the line only to find them blackened by the time they dried. Really want to go back to that?

I remember visiting the Potomac, and seeing signs that said "Do Not Touch Water". I was horrified; where I came from, we drank from rivers and swam in them. There and then, people didn't even leave boats in the water, it was so toxic.

I remember when Oregon led the way on cleaning up, with a bill pushed by the governor (McCall?) that exacted heavy fines for dumping any of a whole list of toxins into any stream at all. The trick that gave it legs was simple: citizens supplying proof that a business was polluting got something like half the fine money. There was an article, I think in National Geographic, about a retired guy who was barely making it, but he had a canoe. He added a calendar and clock, and dug out his wife's huge store of baby food bottles, and he went canoeing. In just a year, he'd garnered enough to make his retirement quite, quite comfortable.

Once the article came out, thousands of people took to the waterways. When it had been just a few, factories would see someone on the water and turn off the effluent, replacing it with clear water. With hordes of determined citizens, they couldn't -- and they got caught.

And once the news got out that people could swim in the Willamette again, other states started following suit -- though I'm not aware of any that were so generous to those that caught polluters.

Now you can -- or so I've heard -- swim in the Potomac.

Because I deal with the federal government, I do believe that a reorganization would be far more beneficial and cost saving. If you want to find funding for EMS or to build a new communication system you think you would go to Homeland Security or FCC, right? Wrong. You'd find those in the Department of Transportation because of studies done decades ago that ultimately resulted in programs being set up to eliminate problems of that day. If you wnat to fix stormwater problems -- you can find funding in more than 60 areas of government!

Yeah. There's a very large sandspit here that use to have a half dozen federal agencies with authority over it, three state agencies, and the county. Over the years, determined county commissioners (with spotty help from the state) have successfully lobbied to whittle that down to one federal (Army Corps of Engineers) and one state (can't think of the name, but it's like Conservation and something), and of course the county.

Thanks to that, people who own property out there can actually use it. No development is permitted, but "natural" uses have been approved. Camping is apparently a "natural" use, if it's low-impact, so now landowners have cleared zones where they camp (and some hunt) -- one creative fellow has a half dozen goats out there, and moves the pen every several months -- one beautiful thing about that is they chomp all the invasive species, which are then easy to kill with just a tiny bit of home-mixed chemicals (sorry, only the state gets to use herbicides).

They're still working on a pea-gravel and wood chip bike path (amazingly durable and a fair surface to bike on -- and it doesn't sink into the sand for years), but there are now horses trails (and one club goes out to pull up invasive species periodically and hiking trails (maintained mostly by hikers who throw in a machete when they go).

Getting government out of the way was definitely a solution -- but if they'd gotten government totally out of the way, the place would be on its way to being destroyed, and I mean that literally -- development destroys dune stability, which destroys the integrity of the sand spit, which makes it vulnerable to being washed away by storms (it's happened before on the Oregon coast).

Oh -- and the commissioners are looking into something I suggested: allowing the landowners to have cabins in they're of all natural materials, with no electricity. Foundations would have to be beach rock with no concrete, etc. -- we're talking pioneer technology. One condition would be that they have to allow others to use the cabins when they aren't there (oops -- I forgot a state agency; Parks and Recreation has authority because of some obscure rule).

While I may not agree with everything of the Occupy movement, I find I do agree with their overarching concepts that the rich have bought government and power; you and I likely cannot make much difference anymore. Heck, I couldn't even make a run for Congress because of the costs (and I won't become a prostitute in order to achieve that goal which is largely what politicians now do--sorry to insult the good, hard-working prostitutes though).

Occupy has a right to protest -- it's in that document that the Tea Party likes to wave at 30 second news events. It does not limit the time to 8 to 5 or just during prime time news hour. I have a right to protest at 2 a.m. -- no matter how inconvenient that may be to others. If you are going to set limits on one, how long before we set limits and roll back all the other rights? If you look at what is happening in Russia today, it is exactly that with the masses going happily along wishing for "the good ol' days" to return....

If the Tea Party folks were actual patriots, they'd be cheering the rise of the Occupy movement -- it's a huge exercise of free speech, and we all know that rights not exercised atrophy.
 
I do? Really? Is that so? You attack California unfairly and you use a vanity fair piece. That does not substantiate an argument. California has had issues with taxation. Half of our economy wasn't even taxed. That explains the shortfalls in revenues. California was actually too business friendly... and we had REPUBLICANS in charge in the past (including one grade B actor... sound familiar?). Schwarzenegger, Deukmajian, Pete Wilson, Ronald Reagan... etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governor_of_California

My point is California's revenue problems stem from these republican governors and Proposition 13.

Republican states? Republicans states just live off of California. If we fail, we will take the ENTIRE country with us since the REPUBLICAN states are dependent on other states and federal funding.

We still have a $2 trillion dollar economy, and we still make the backbone of this country. If we fail, your precious republican states will collapse.

Someone advised me to ignore certain people. I think i'll start doing that.

The articles I linked indicate failures across the united states not just California. But if your going away before you go let me thank you. Have a nice life and don't get sand in your eyes.

The discussion on roles of the federal government brought a chuckle this morning after I read a book my mother-in-law found at a recent yardsale. The book was about the one room school houses in Charles County, MD and began with a discussion on how the educational system had failed because the illiteracy rate was increasing -- 43 more students were found to be illiterate after schooling. The year was 1843! The article went on to call for better teaching and testing with more rigorous oversight of teachers!

Fast forward and our school systems continue to fail. When I was younger, some were not expected to take college prep but, instead, go into manufacturing. Unfortunately, most of those jobs have disappeared to other countries that pay far under any wage that would allow a person to live in this country.

At the recent Republican debate, Romney said we should allow engineers from other countries into ours so that the 30,000 jobs now needing to be filled could be filled; otherwise kick them all out. Why not give full college payments to students capable and willing but who otherwise might not be able to afford it -- from this country? Wouldn't that make more sense?

The sad part is we have such a robust post secondary education system that it is worthwhile to come from another country and stay here. That dried up significantly after 9/11 due to the difficulty in staying. We CAN and should support foreign talent staying on these shores.

We do need a manufacturing base because some skilled labor can not be accomplished overseas. No matter how cheap the labor moving the large objects constructed is cost prohibitive.

The differences in the two movements I think can be quickly boiled down to focus. The Tea Party focused like a laser on a particular issue and got their sound bites massaged by folks such as the Koch Brothers who threw tons of money behind the movement. They have been effective at lower the credit rating of this country, polarizing government, and not doing a damn thing about our ballooning debt. They continue to say that spending is a problem -- not revenues -- despite multiple bi-partisan panels studying the situation. All of the bi-partisan commissions have found you CANNOT cut your way out of the current budget mess. Without discussion of revenues, it is simply impossible unless you want to eliminate Medicare, Social Security, and/or defense.

Ok so for difference of two and focus on one. Check.

You can not get there SOLELY by cutting but you can go a long damn way. continued below each example...

As for other cabinet positions, I think that the Department of Education should focus more on block grants to states that do develop comprehensive and fair plans while eliminating funds to those that espouse religious beliefs upon students. It should greatly reduce the costs of running the department which would instead focus on outcomes, not inputs as it currently does.

Why should they provide a grant of any fucking sort? Why does the federal government have to take my money so as to dole it out back to me? If we need higher educational taxes in the states then cause it to be so and reduce equally the federal tax. Easy day.

As for the EPA -- I remember all too well when rivers caught fire in this country. I remember the Grand River that ran through my city had no fish other than carp or "suckers." It was basically an open sewer running across Michigan and into Lake Michigan. I remember massive fish die offs at my aunt and uncles cottage on Jordan Lake -- caused by the septic tanks which overflowed into the lake and caused the plant life to explode. The "good ol' days" were not. I've also seen pictures of hundreds of chimneys in my hometown belching black soot and heard the stories of women hanging clothes on the line only to find them blackened by the time they dried. Really want to go back to that?

Right but as Kuli pointed out above you can enforce and regulate all of these things with people who are affected by it. You can't tell me with the number of tree huggers we are creating each year we can't find enough reporting environmentalist. I love the incentive program too. Half the fine. Easy Day. So since the laws exist what the fuck does the EPA do each and every day? Collect a pay check?

I like the clean water act as well. But you who does all the work when we have a spill off a Navy asset? The US Navy. You know who does all the work when commercial ports have an accident? The commercial entity. The EPA rep sits in a fucking office on the water front and gets a report FROM the offender on what we did to correct it. In other words collecting a paycheck. The law exist let it be enforced. Do we really need a giant bureaucratic money pit to nod when we execute?

Because I deal with the federal government, I do believe that a reorganization would be far more beneficial and cost saving. If you want to find funding for EMS or to build a new communication system you think you would go to Homeland Security or FCC, right? Wrong. You'd find those in the Department of Transportation because of studies done decades ago that ultimately resulted in programs being set up to eliminate problems of that day. If you wnat to fix stormwater problems -- you can find funding in more than 60 areas of government!

I agree times a million. This is why I think there could be billions in savings in the military without losing a single mission capability.

While I may not agree with everything of the Occupy movement, I find I do agree with their overarching concepts that the rich have bought government and power; you and I likely cannot make much difference anymore. Heck, I couldn't even make a run for Congress because of the costs (and I won't become a prostitute in order to achieve that goal which is largely what politicians now do--sorry to insult the good, hard-working prostitutes though).

Occupy has a right to protest -- it's in that document that the Tea Party likes to wave at 30 second news events. It does not limit the time to 8 to 5 or just during prime time news hour. I have a right to protest at 2 a.m. -- no matter how inconvenient that may be to others. If you are going to set limits on one, how long before we set limits and roll back all the other rights? If you look at what is happening in Russia today, it is exactly that with the masses going happily along wishing for "the good ol' days" to return....

I agree whole heatedly. But that single laser focus that the TP has and you dislike? That is what the OWS movement needs. Some laser sights. They need to find some organization and a focus. The American public feel their pain and is behind them but wont support ' (shrug) everything' forever. They have already fully demonstrated that they can fully demonstrate. Time to go to work. Or as previous OWS supporters have indicated should they just sit there till the world changes?
 
The teabaggers were actually a front group started by and working for the ruling class, via the Koch Brothers. They were pseudo-populists. They never wanted any fundamental, systemic change, they wanted to get the Democratic faction of the ruling class (i.e., Obama etc.) out of power and re-install the Republican faction of the ruling class. Since they were actually operating in defense of the status quo of the true power structure, they were no threat to the powers that be, therefore they weren't pepper sprayed.
 
The difference between Tea Party and Occupiers?

Tea Partiers are adults.

Fleabaggers are spoiled kids.
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