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Healthcare going forward

Thank you rareboy and Kara Balut for your explanations. I could see certain things like vision and dental could be handled partly(or at least with more range of options) in a private complementary system. And getting the best bang for the buck is not only practical, but wise. My only concern is that as we see in our US system, skimping to keep down costs may be easy but foolish and counterproductive. Encouraging people not to overburden a public system by not offering a wide variety of expensive frills makes sense. But like has been mentioned, there is ongoing pressure from all sides and the best aspects of a more public health delivery system must be what the ultimate goal is. If you don't have to worry about financial burden, you can get the supplemental/expanded coverage available in the private system for easily affordable rates. It's as important to me as ever we need a primarily public health care delivery system with that private extra option. And it is incredibly sad and depressing we in the US are still not with the rest of the developed world on this.
 
^ where I'm from, there's emergency dental but otherwise it's paid/insurance.
All emergency medical is public, and free. Accidents are covered by government insurance.
For elective surgery (hips, cataracts, etc - things that improve quality of life) it's better to use insurance or pay as you'll wait under public.
There's a conservative government and naturally they prefer to make private more attractive. Under liberal governments they tend to increase the funding for electric surgery.
Public hospitals are clean and modern, private hospitals are silver service.

Mall optometrists are much cheaper than in the USA, starting at around $80 for prescription glasses.
 
Kabluey said:
^ where I'm from, there's emergency dental but otherwise it's paid/insurance.
All emergency medical is public, and free. Accidents are covered by government insurance.
For elective surgery (hips, cataracts, etc - things that improve quality of life) it's better to use insurance or pay as you'll wait under public.
There's a conservative government and naturally they prefer to make private more attractive. Under liberal governments they tend to increase the funding for electric surgery.
Public hospitals are clean and modern, private hospitals are silver service.

Mall optometrists are much cheaper than in the USA, starting at around $80 for prescription glasses.
Click to expand...
The key thing in countries with a primary public health care system is that freedom from worry about getting into debt paying bills for serious medical issues or accidents. And where you have to pay some for certain kinds of coverage it's more affordable than here in the US. Good medical care for all as a baseline isn't an entitlement but a human right. Buying fancy things isn't essential...but one's health is. There's a place for private care to give more options but anyone who gets sick will get good care. For all the talk here in America about the US being the greatest country in the world... well it's my country and there's a lot I love about it, but some I don't and our health care system is a sorry mess compared to so many countries. We're not the best, unfortunately but hopefully it won't be too long before we can join other nations that embrace primarily public health care.
 
Sausy said:
I thought the Canadian system was like the European systems... a tiered system seems to leave room for skimping. Your public system doesn't cover eye, dental, meds all that well?

The key words in Kara Balut's summation is "for those who can afford it". Prevention is of course all well and good, but if you have a heart attack, stroke, get cancer, get into a major accident... why should it be the super rich can be able to get coverage to their hearts content, but those with limited means get bupkis. People shouldn't have to face huge bills for being sick... why the fuck would I want to recover if I faced thousands upon thousands of dollars in bills?
Click to expand...

(emphasis mine)

That brings back a memory: a guy I worked with tried to kill himself, but messed it up and lived. Like three weeks later he was doing well, but then the medical bills came.

The second time he succeeded.
 
Sausy said:
The key thing in countries with a primary public health care system is that freedom from worry about getting into debt paying bills for serious medical issues or accidents. And where you have to pay some for certain kinds of coverage it's more affordable than here in the US. Good medical care for all as a baseline isn't an entitlement but a human right. Buying fancy things isn't essential...but one's health is. There's a place for private care to give more options but anyone who gets sick will get good care. For all the talk here in America about the US being the greatest country in the world... well it's my country and there's a lot I love about it, but some I don't and our health care system is a sorry mess compared to so many countries. We're not the best, unfortunately but hopefully it won't be too long before we can join other nations that embrace primarily public health care.
Click to expand...

Medical care isn't a right since it requires action by others. What it is, is an obligation: fellow-citizens should care for each other, or stop pretending they're any kind of patriot because all they believe in is a jungle of individuals climbing on each other to get ahead.

In order for "We, the people" to mean anything we have to at least treat each other as members of our people.
 
Sausy said:
The key thing in countries with a primary public health care system is that freedom from worry about getting into debt paying bills for serious medical issues or accidents. And where you have to pay some for certainIf kinds of coverage it's more affordable than here in the US. Good medical care for all as a baseline isn't an entitlement but a human right. Buying fancy things isn't essential...but one's health is. There's a place for private care to give more options but anyone who gets sick will get good care. For all the talk here in America about the US being the greatest country in the world... well it's my country and there's a lot I love about it, but some I don't and our health care system is a sorry mess compared to so many countries. We're not the best, unfortunately but hopefully it won't be too long before we can join other nations that embrace primarily public health care.
Click to expand...

If health care were a fundamental right, which it is not, then others would have the obligation to work to give it to them, and everyone would be obligated to work, if they can. Before we start passing out free health care, lets force everyone to contribute, even democrats. No families on welfare generation after generation. No earned income charity. No refugees on welfare. No free ride for the underground economy or the criminals. Democrats always forget that their motto, "From each according to ability..." means no able bodied person gets a free ride.
 
Benvolio said:
If health care were a fundamental right, which it is not, then others would have the obligation to work to give it to them, and everyone would be obligated to work, if they can. Before we start passing out free health care, lets force everyone to contribute, even democrats. No families on welfare generation after generation. No earned income charity. No refugees on welfare. No free ride for the underground economy.
Click to expand...

:rotflmao:

Perhaps we should start with forcing Republicans to congtribute
 
Kulindahr said:
Rights arise from self-ownership.

The flip side of having a country which protects your rights is the obligations that come with citizenship. Health care isn't a right, but it is an obligation.
Click to expand...

The primary fundamental human right is the right to life.
Everything else follows.
 
Kabluey said:
The primary fundamental human right is the right to life.
Everything else follows.
Click to expand...

You are correct. You have a right to life which translates into a right to seek healthcare. We as a society of collective individuals sharing that right have a moral and social obligation not to hinder and aid others in seeking that right where practical. So society providing the means to obtain needed healthcare is part of what follows.
 
Funny how there's a general acceptance that education is in the public interest, but that healthcare isn't, among certain circles.
 
Stardreamer said:
You are correct. You have a right to life which translates into a right to seek healthcare. We as a society of collective individuals sharing that right have a moral and social obligation not to hinder and aid others in seeking that right where practical. So society providing the means to obtain needed healthcare is part of what follows.
Click to expand...

I agree except for the last sentence. It is a big leap from "do not hinder" to "provide."
 
It totally baffles me how so many Americans think that driving a car is a right, but not dying is a privilege.
 
^As it does me Neil.

Here healthcare is a right, enshrined in law. Regardless of your wealth, or lack of.

Universal health care is far from perfect, but not a day goes by where i thank god that i live in a country that provides it for its citizens.
 
It would be an interesting thread in itself on what are rights vs obligations, but still good see those with libertarian perspectives(at least to certain degrees) like Stardreamer and Kuli to strongly acknowledge in a decent society we do have a responsibility, an obligation, to all the make sure all citizens are provide with a health care system that treats all regardless of their status. A poor or middle class person with a bad heart or cancer or diabetes or have been in a serious accident is no less worthy of proper treatment than a wealthy one. And most developed nations provide it with that sense of responsibility for all, regardless of ability to pay. We aren't there yet.. while I have said there are many good things about America there a certainly not a few things, including health care, where we are FAR from being able to beat our chests as the world's best nation. Let's get a lot better at least in regards to basic, decent health care for all.
 
Sausy said:
It would be an interesting thread in itself on what are rights vs obligations, but still good see those with libertarian perspectives(at least to certain degrees) like Stardreamer and Kuli to strongly acknowledge in a decent society we do have a responsibility, an obligation, to all the make sure all citizens are provide with a health care system that treats all regardless of their status. A poor or middle class person with a bad heart or cancer or diabetes or have been in a serious accident is no less worthy of proper treatment than a wealthy one. And most developed nations provide it with that sense of responsibility for all, regardless of ability to pay. We aren't there yet.. while I have said there are many good things about America there a certainly not a few things, including health care, where we are FAR from being able to beat our chests as the world's best nation. Let's get a lot better at least in regards to basic, decent health care for all.
Click to expand...

Why do criminals who do not taxes deserve health care at the expense of decent people who work and pay taxes? Why do the able bodied people who live on welfare generation after generation? Why do people who sneak into the country? The vast underground economy where people do earn but pay no income tax? And why should any of them get on the waiting list in front of taxpayers? All theseschemes are based upon requiring the people who pay to accept inferior health care than they now have.
 
So we let all criminals die, do we? Sorry Bud, but that is the contract the US makes by incarcerating more people per capita than any other country on earth.

Ask all the good white folk who have shit education and no skills...living out in the best of bumfuck America why they end up with mutli-generational welfare families. They use up the bulk of it. Who knows, if the US had better primary care, better family planning and pre-natal care and some actual coverage that didn't bankrupt generation after generation....maybe you would see a shift.

Why do people sneak into the country? Because they know that there are employers who will pay them to do the work that Americans won't. Help ensure that their countries aren't ravaged by wars of America's making, help ensure that all countries are part of a healthy productive international economic system and maybe people wouldn't want to rush to the magical kingdom.

Do a lot of these things and you would really undercut the underground economy...but why wouldn't Joe American want to do some deals on the side when they have a President who says it is smart to pay no taxes at all and they see the corporations and 1% shovelling their money offshore to beat tax or literally writing the tax code to shift all the burden to the middle class?

Fix these problems, friend, and you might see a more just and healthy society.

As long as you and the Republicans continue to view health as a commodity and not as an essential underpinning of a healthy and productive society, you will never get it. It is just beyond your intellectual grasp. Seriously.

And when we listen to the arguments put forward by you and the Tea Party folk...I think that none of us expect that you'll ever get it. You don't know how it works in other modern western countries...you are not capable of understanding how it works and to persist in trying to explain it is like teaching a pig to sing...it only wastes the teacher's time and annoys the pig.
 
Kabluey said:
Funny how there's a general acceptance that education is in the public interest, but that healthcare isn't, among certain circles.
Click to expand...

Among those circles they don't want to pay for public education either.
 
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