Healthcare going forward

[TX-Beau]

Why do criminals who do not taxes deserve health care at the expense of decent people who work and pay taxes? Why do the able bodied people who live on welfare generation after generation? Why do people who sneak into the country? The vast underground economy where people do earn but pay no income tax? And why should any of them get on the waiting list in front of taxpayers? All theseschemes are based upon requiring the people who pay to accept inferior health care than they now have.

Yeah, if we don't provide healthcare they WON"T GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM and force us to pay double or triple the PRICE!!

Fuckers should be driven away so they can crawl off and DIE!!!!


Ben's compassion brings a little tear ro my eye....

 

[gsdx]

Fix these problems, friend, and you might see a more just and healthy society.

He's just pissed off because the Trump's healthcare plan got nuked at the starting gate. The only sensible healthcare plan is obviously one which gives protection to the people who are wealthy enough not to need it.

 

[TX-Beau]

So we let all criminals die, do we? Sorry Bud, but that is the contract the US makes by incarcerating more people per capita than any other country on earth.

Ask all the good white folk who have shit education and no skills...living out in the best of bumfuck America why they end up with mutli-generational welfare families. They use up the bulk of it. Who knows, if the US had better primary care, better family planning and pre-natal care and some actual coverage that didn't bankrupt generation after generation....maybe you would see a shift.

Why do people sneak into the country? Because they know that there are employers who will pay them to do the work that Americans won't. Help ensure that their countries aren't ravaged by wars of America's making, help ensure that all countries are part of a healthy productive international economic system and maybe people wouldn't want to rush to the magical kingdom.

Do a lot of these things and you would really undercut the underground economy...but why wouldn't Joe American want to do some deals on the side when they have a President who says it is smart to pay no taxes at all and they see the corporations and 1% shovelling their money offshore to beat tax or literally writing the tax code to shift all the burden to the middle class?

Fix these problems, friend, and you might see a more just and healthy society.

As long as you and the Republicans continue to view health as a commodity and not as an essential underpinning of a healthy and productive society, you will never get it. It is just beyond your intellectual grasp. Seriously.

And when we listen to the arguments put forward by you and the Tea Party folk...I think that none of us expect that you'll ever get it. You don't know how it works in other modern western countries...you are not capable of understanding how it works and to persist in trying to explain it is like teaching a pig to sing...it only wastes the teacher's time and annoys the pig.

You should see some of the Rednecks with their multiple children (and daddies,) no education, no desire to get one, no jobs, no desire to get one, living like queens off the taxpayer dime...

LOL

Ben and his ilk don't care about how things work in other countries, because at the core, they DON'T WANT black and brown people to have healthcare or education or anything that might make thier lives better - because they don't deserve it, because they are black and brown. THERE it is.

Republicans don't want single payer because they'd have to help the N*****S.

Period.

- - - Updated - - -

All they ways they discuss these issues are just code for that.

 

[Benvolio]

You are derailing. They question is why do all those non contributors deserve health care at the expense of workers but you want fix all the other problems. Not in this thread.

 

[Kulindahr]

The primary fundamental human right is the right to life.
Everything else follows.

The right to life arises from self-ownership -- if you don't own yourself, you have no right to life.

 

[Kulindahr]

You are correct. You have a right to life which translates into a right to seek healthcare. We as a society of collective individuals sharing that right have a moral and social obligation not to hinder and aid others in seeking that right where practical. So society providing the means to obtain needed healthcare is part of what follows.

A right to seek care, but not to demand it, as that infringes on others' self-ownership.

 

[Kulindahr]

I agree except for the last sentence. It is a big leap from "do not hinder" to "provide."

That's because you missed the shift from the individual and rights to society and obligations.

 

[Kulindahr]

It would be an interesting thread in itself on what are rights vs obligations, but still good see those with libertarian perspectives(at least to certain degrees) like Stardreamer and Kuli to strongly acknowledge in a decent society we do have a responsibility, an obligation, to all the make sure all citizens are provide with a health care system that treats all regardless of their status. A poor or middle class person with a bad heart or cancer or diabetes or have been in a serious accident is no less worthy of proper treatment than a wealthy one. And most developed nations provide it with that sense of responsibility for all, regardless of ability to pay. We aren't there yet.. while I have said there are many good things about America there a certainly not a few things, including health care, where we are FAR from being able to beat our chests as the world's best nation. Let's get a lot better at least in regards to basic, decent health care for all.

The difference between rights and obligations rests on two different questions: who we are as individuals, and who we are as a people. The two are distinct, but do inform one another.

Today's right wants all the benefits of the first, while wanting nothing to do with the second.

 

[smokeshadow]

I'd like to point out to Ben that enshrined in the U.S. Declaration of Independence are three inalienable rights. Two of which are LIFE and THE PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS. Healthcare is intrinsically intertwined with life and happiness. Without it, there is no life or happiness. And to his point about "criminals" getting "free" healthcare. . .these are human beings who deserve our compassion and help. Our criminal justice system treats convicted criminals better than these supposed "criminals". The United States is supposed to be better than other countries. Why can't we treat everyone like we, ourselves would like to be treated. And don't give me any grief about the U.S. citizens not having enough to pay for everyone else. We are supposed to be the richest country in the world and we can't take care of all of us!! I call that B.S.!!!

 

[rareboy]

You are derailing. They question is why do all those non contributors deserve health care at the expense of workers but you want fix all the other problems. Not in this thread.

Well, the simple answer is that no one is getting their health care at the expense of the 'workers'. There is more than enough health care to go around and have everyone get what they need.

A child is a free-loader. Pure and simple. But a child deserves to get the necessary health care because of their potential value to society. And because health is not based on economic prowess, but actual physical need.

As I said though, as long as the right wing views healthcare only as a commodity....you will never understand, because you do not have the capacity to understand.

And I also would note that the US Constitution does make it pretty clear that Life is an entitlement for all....recognizing of course that the framers probably didn't mean the black slaves when they penned those soaring words.

 

[TX-Beau]

Well, the simple answer is that no one is getting their health care t the expense of the 'workers'. There is more than enough health care to go around and have everyone get what they need.

A child is a free-loader. Pure and simple. But a child deserves to get the necessary health care because of their potential value to society. And because health is not based on economic prowess, but actual physical need.

As I said though, as long as the right wing views healthcare only as a commodity....you will never understand, because you do not have the capacity to understand.

Benvolio who was supposed to be ignoring me, doesn't like to hear the truth, people like him have no problems getting white people (who they assume are all the "taxpayers") socialism of all kinds, they just object to doing anything to help anyone else.

Racism. Whatever the excuses is all that it is.

They will oppose any plan that insures anyone but themselves no matter how much good sense it makes.

 

[Kulindahr]

Why do criminals who do not taxes deserve health care at the expense of decent people who work and pay taxes? Why do the able bodied people who live on welfare generation after generation? Why do people who sneak into the country? The vast underground economy where people do earn but pay no income tax? And why should any of them get on the waiting list in front of taxpayers? All theseschemes are based upon requiring the people who pay to accept inferior health care than they now have.

It's irrelevant whether they "deserve" it. We are the ones who deserve it -- we owe it to ourselves to take care of those who are part of our people.

You prate about the nation and assimilation, but you give those no substance appropriate to those constituting a people. A people is a family writ large, and what family worth its name does not take care of its own? It is not because of the worth of the individuals to whom care is given, but for the sake of the worth of the individuals who give it that health care for all is an obligation: if we do not grant it, how dare we claim to be their fellow-citizens?

And you maintain that we have a Judeo-Christian heritage, but that claim is just noise in the wind if we do not honor it by treating others as we would treat ourselves. I remind you at this point of the origin of a phrase you hate: straight out of the Bible, right out of that Judeo-Christian heritage you claim to honor, comes the admonition "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -- yes, Marx stole it, though he didn't get it quite right, since the Apostles didn't require everyone to give up all wealth. It comes from the book of Acts, but it is also from Jesus' own words, when He said "From him to whom much is given, much is required." Yet Jesus' words only echoed those of the prophets, who condemned those who own multiple houses and fancy estates yet do not see to it that the poor are housed and fed.

Either we are a people, and one with a Judeo-Christian heritage, or we are not. You cannot invoke the words appropriate to being a people, or having that heritage, yet ignore the substance -- or rather you can, but then the other side of the Judeo-Christian heritage must kick in, naming you a whitewashed tomb, a dignified sepulchre with only death inside.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'd like to point out to Ben that enshrined in the U.S. Declaration of Independence are three inalienable rights. Two of which are LIFE and THE PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS. Healthcare is intrinsically intertwined with life and happiness. Without it, there is no life or happiness. And to his point about "criminals" getting "free" healthcare. . .these are human beings who deserve our compassion and help. Our criminal justice system treats convicted criminals better than these supposed "criminals". The United States is supposed to be better than other countries. Why can't we treat everyone like we, ourselves would like to be treated. And don't give me any grief about the U.S. citizens not having enough to pay for everyone else. We are supposed to be the richest country in the world and we can't take care of all of us!! I call that B.S.!!!

If we took just two things, we'd have enough to make a huge start on medical care for all: the excess administrative costs of insurance companies and the money spent on advertising by pharmaceutical companies and others. That alone demonstrates that the country is rich enough to do it.

 

[Kulindahr]

Well, the simple answer is that no one is getting their health care at the expense of the 'workers'. There is more than enough health care to go around and have everyone get what they need.

Perhaps more pointedly, why does Ben want the wealthy to get wealthier "at the expense of the workers", but doesn't want the workers to get medical care at the expense of the workers?

Frak, even the Puritans recognized that no man becomes wealthy on his own, but does so because of the community and its workers! When Senator Warren talked about "you didn't do it yourself", she was just referencing the country's Judeo-Christian heritage.

 

[Benvolio]

Well, the simple answer is that no one is getting their health care at the expense of the 'workers'. There is more than enough health care to go around and have everyone get what they need.

A child is a free-loader. Pure and simple. But a child deserves to get the necessary health care because of their potential value to society. And because health is not based on economic prowess, but actual physical need.

As I said though, as long as the right wing views healthcare only as a commodity....you will never understand, because you do not have the capacity to understand.

And I also would note that the US Constitution does make it pretty clear that Life is an entitlement for all....recognizing of course that the framers probably didn't mean the black slaves when they penned those soaring words.

Stop evading and derailing. Why are able bodied criminals outside prison, welfare people, invaders and underground economy entitled to health care paid for by someone else's labor. The constitution does not entitle every one or anyone to live their lives on welfare as you claim. It does guarantee liberty and prohibits involuntary servitude. Forcing some to support others and provide them free health care, is a denial of liberty and an imposition of involuntary servitude.

 

[rareboy]

Just a minute there.

This thread is about healthcare going forward....so it is far more complex and nuanced than all of us reading your knee-jerk rant about immigrants and illegals and anyone else you don't like. You seem to suddenly think that you are the originator of this thread.

You are not.

Your arguments in fact are not about healthcare...they are about the broadest discussion about general rights and entitlements.

As I noted. You don't understand how it works in other countries. You don't want to understand how it works. It flies in the face of your prejudices and hatreds.

So people trying to educate you about universal healthcare obviously only annoys you and wastes our time.

 

[Benvolio]

Just a minute there.

This thread is about healthcare going forward....so it is far more complex and nuanced than all of us reading your knee-jerk rant about immigrants and illegals and anyone else you don't like. You seem to suddenly think that you are the originator of this thread.

You are not.

Your arguments in fact are not about healthcare...they are about the broadest discussion about general rights and entitlements.

As I noted. You don't understand how it works in other countries. You don't want to understand how it works. It flies in the face of your prejudices and hatreds.

So people trying to educate you about universal healthcare obviously only annoys you and wastes our time.

You are not the originator either and the thread is not about what other countries do. Suddenly you think that only the originator can object to derailing. I will remember that the next time you scold out of you own threads.

 

[Kabluey]

You are not the originator either and the thread is not about what other countries do. Suddenly you think that only the originator can object to derailing. I will remember that the next time you scold out of you own threads.

You want healthcare to be used as a tool to decide who lives and who dies.
You're actually quite evil, Ben.

 

[gsdx]

You are derailing. They question is why do all those non contributors deserve health care at the expense of workers but you want fix all the other problems. Not in this thread.

That is YOUR question, not the question posed in this thread. You are the one derailing by constantly bringing up your blatant bigotry and hatred.

 

[frankfrank]

Who knows, if the US had better primary care, better family planning and pre-natal care and some actual coverage that didn't bankrupt generation after generation....maybe you would see a shift.

FORGET about the "maybe" part - there would be a shift. Very much of a shift.

A healthy United States means that all other aspects of living here will operate better. Having the health to continue to live life is THE most important of all factors for humans AND all other living organisms.

I consider health care, and (for people who are legally here) education and the unconditional right to vote, to be OBLIGATIONS, nothing less. Indeed I extend these rights entirely to those who are incarcerated and, yes, that even includes voting on Death Row.

If not, how do congressional districts "get away with" counting the incarcerated within their districts, when they are drawn? With prisoners in most districts not being allowed to vote, it gives unequal power to those "legal" voters in prison districts. JUST CURIOUS, a side question...does anybody know if "estimated" undocumented/illegal aliens are counted when districts are being drawn? They shouldn't be counted either, in redistricting. Of course the minor children of legal voters cannot vote, but they are part of those families and need to be counted in redistricting, as they have skin in the game.

All aspects of life are all about, FIRST, being in good health, and all else follows from that. Education is expensive, but it's also highly budget-positive as it "pays for itself" a few times over by producing workers and jobs which are much more competitive in the world. Can one imagine what place the USA would have in the world if nobody was educated past Grade 8? Assuring the right to vote has only negligible cost at the most, and I feel is an OBLIGATION for any society that considers itself to be human.