Heaven/Hell

[Dolmance]

I've always found it bizarre how those who cite Heaven most often are the very worst advertisements for it and any attached ideologies. Do they honestly think anyone wants to be in their company for all eternity?

 

[bankside]

I think heaven is dedicated to the hollow proposition that life gets better in death. Hell is even more delusional. Reincarnation has more credibility, believe it or not. But all of it is wasted speculation and idle imagination. I invite everyone to not be distracted by it, and to spend the days they have enjoying reality as we know it, and in trying to improve the world to ease the way and make the passage of time here more enriching for ourselves and those that follow us.

 

[Bodhi1]

Hello folks! My first post I am delighted to find this thread in a sexual site!
I was born to WASP parents in Toronto Canada and was kicked out of the Church when I came out with a bang while at McGill University in Montreal in the 1950's. It was an awakening because I discovered the spiritual feelings I had were INSIDE ME and NOT connected to any "consecrated and/or holy" place.

In 1967 I met my Beloved, another gay and spiritual man. We became instant lovers and ended up in India at the feel of a Tantric Master. My full name is Swami Bodhidharma and my Beloved was named Swami Harikirti (Beloved of God) ... We both flowered there and since with that energy so I do not have any foundation of "Christian" teachings.

My Beloved Kirti and I were legally married in 2003 in Toronto after a 35-year "engagement" Then Cancer arrived in our lives ... I survived but in 2005 my Beloved Kirti passed. I KNOW that his Energy survives to this day ... this is not theology, it is a personal awareness ... his life and work continues on a different plane, and when I leave the body I will certainly choose to reconnect with him.

Until then just to confound some of you I have found a spiritual home in the Metropolitan Community Church of Toronto where I have been a (non-Christian) Full Member and volunteer for 2 years now. We accept anyone - our door and membership is open to all people and I love that. Our Pastor was given the Order of Canada (our highest honour) for his work on behalf of GLBT folks ...

If any of you read the wonderful fiction on this site, I joined because of an astonishing tale of many pages called "Watching Brad". He describes MCC rather well ... I would love to meet this wonderful Member from Peterborough ... but I no longer drive ... but we will see ...
Enough for my first post!!!

 

[Kulindahr]

I've always found it bizarre how those who cite Heaven most often are the very worst advertisements for it and any attached ideologies. Do they honestly think anyone wants to be in their company for all eternity?

Like those bloody annoying Jehovah's Witlesses....

 

[Kulindahr]

If any of you read the wonderful fiction on this site, I joined because of an astonishing tale of many pages called "Watching Brad". He describes MCC rather well ... I would love to meet this wonderful Member from Peterborough ... but I no longer drive ... but we will see ...
Enough for my first post!!!

I always thought the "Gay stories" were just amateur porn writing!

 

[ABoyNamedSue]

I personally think heaven and hell are a state of mind. I am not sure a loving God would send his childern to an enternal damnation. It does not really make much sense to me. Most things do not make sense to me for that matter. I am not so much concerned about heaven, hell the after life, the next life, the last life I had. There is much to much going on in the world to worry about the after life or the life that I had before this one. I will plot along living my life as best as I can, helping those that I can to the best of my ability, and when I die if I just turn into to dust I turn into to dust, if I go to heaven that is fine, and if I go to hell, I guess I go to hell. But, can it truely be that bad of a place considering how many people would theoritically be damned to hell. Depending on whose interpertation you followed that could be most everyone.

 

[Kulindahr]

^
The argument has been put forth that Hell exists because of God's love: that all Hell is, is the place where God isn't, and that people end up there because God loves them too much to violate the integrity of person He's bestowed on them, to force them to spend eternity with Him when they've made it plain they don't want to.

 

[bankside]

^
The argument has been put forth that Hell exists because of God's love: that all Hell is, is the place where God isn't, and that people end up there because God loves them too much to violate the integrity of person He's bestowed on them, to force them to spend eternity with Him when they've made it plain they don't want to.

That is at least an internally coherent conception of hell, compared to the "good vs. evil" nonsense spouted by most of theology and throughout most of religious practice over the centuries.

However, it doesn't jibe with the idea you've promoted elsewhere that existence is god's light. There is no place one can go, in that view, without continuing to be a product of god. There would be no escaping the divine link. Moreover, what would be the point? Hell would be the equivalent of closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALALA, I DON'T SEE YOU!" a sentiment and a conceit that any deity would seem unlikely to deem worthy of respect let alone accommodation.

Hell isn't a holy place of exile, or of transcendent solitude, or any of that. It is the answer to a question that no one is asking.

 

[Kulindahr]

That is at least an internally coherent conception of hell, compared to the "good vs. evil" nonsense spouted by most of theology and throughout most of religious practice over the centuries.

It fits quite well with evil/good -- it's just that one has to arrive at a more mature view of evil/good than a list of rules.

However, it doesn't jibe with the idea you've promoted elsewhere that existence is god's light. There is no place one can go, in that view, without continuing to be a product of god. There would be no escaping the divine link. Moreover, what would be the point? Hell would be the equivalent of closing your eyes, putting your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALALA, I DON'T SEE YOU!" a sentiment and a conceit that any deity would seem unlikely to deem worthy of respect let alone accommodation.

The illustration with light was for this material universe, if God stopped being; there's no conflict here.

I'm not sure there's a point to your next part, though. For starters, who are you describing as eyes closed, fingers in ears, and such? In the proposal I related, that would be the folks who want nothing to do with God -- and He grants them their wish.
Of course, that's what would make it Hell: He'd grant them eternal existence, but without Him... which would mean without any of the joy, beauty, delight, or profoundness with which He has infused this creation. They'd be stuck with each other, permanently.

 

[bankside]

It fits quite well with evil/good -- it's just that one has to arrive at a more mature view of evil/good than a list of rules.

If such a conception exists, it has not been in evidence these past millennia for the vast, vast bulk of those both preaching and worshipping. Indeed, I daresay it may be a private religion known only to the tiniest minority. It is so tiny, this pure and sensible religion, that it is easy to mistake for someone trying to sidestep the argument with a fallacy of logic known as "No true Scotsman.."

The illustration with light was for this material universe, if God stopped being; there's no conflict here.

I'm not sure there's a point to your next part, though. For starters, who are you describing as eyes closed, fingers in ears, and such? In the proposal I related, that would be the folks who want nothing to do with God -- and He grants them their wish.
Of course, that's what would make it Hell: He'd grant them eternal existence, but without Him... which would mean without any of the joy, beauty, delight, or profoundness with which He has infused this creation. They'd be stuck with each other, permanently.

They would delight in each other. If they are a product of god, they would delight in god's production. That is hardly a precursor for a logically consistent hell. If they were kept in solitary confinement they would delight in their own identity. If god existed, there would be no escaping the obviousness of his existence, even in hell or oblivion, or the fortress of solitude, or wherever we are ostensibly sent when we are naughty and don't pay enough out to the local priest.

If I were to buy into the idea of divinity, being stuck for eternity with god's children would render impossible not being able to know joy, beauty, delight, or profoundness. That is what I mean when I say there is no point in respecting a will to be separate. Any god would be bound to say "Listen this is just silly; you are of divine providence like everything else, and it can't be helped, now stop sulking and come sit on this cloud and eat philadelphia cream cheese with the rest." and the individual would have no choice but to say "oh, yes of course! now that you put it that way, what was I thinking? Now that I see, I see. I can't will myself not to see what is there to be seen." and it would be settled thus.

 

[Kulindahr]

If such a conception exists, it has not been in evidence these past millennia for the vast, vast bulk of those both preaching and worshipping. Indeed, I daresay it may be a private religion known only to the tiniest minority. It is so tiny, this pure and sensible religion, that it is easy to mistake for someone trying to sidestep the argument with a fallacy of logic known as "No true Scotsman.."


They would delight in each other. If they are a product of god, they would delight in god's production. That is hardly a precursor for a logically consistent hell. If they were kept in solitary confinement they would delight in their own identity. If god existed, there would be no escaping the obviousness of his existence, even in hell or oblivion, or the fortress of solitude, or wherever we are ostensibly sent when we are naughty and don't pay enough out to the local priest.

If I were to buy into the idea of divinity, being stuck for eternity with god's children would render impossible not being able to know joy, beauty, delight, or profoundness. That is what I mean when I say there is no point in respecting a will to be separate. Any god would be bound to say "Listen this is just silly; you are of divine providence like everything else, and it can't be helped, now stop sulking and come sit on this cloud and eat philadelphia cream cheese with the rest." and the individual would have no choice but to say "oh, yes of course! now that you put it that way, what was I thinking? Now that I see, I see. I can't will myself not to see what is there to be seen." and it would be settled thus.

That's a shallow view of both God and intelligent creatures. It sounds to me more like you're describing a product to get addicted on and take your mind away.

In Hell all you would have would be the things you could think up for yourself... and of course all the other folks there. Since that would include rapists, murderers, and worse sorts, now with nothing to limit their behavior, it would be, well, hell.

The sort of picture you paint is the kind of childish, carnival-god sort of thing I got sick of in Sunday School long ago.

 

[bankside]

That's a shallow view of both God and intelligent creatures. It sounds to me more like you're describing a product to get addicted on and take your mind away.

In Hell all you would have would be the things you could think up for yourself... and of course all the other folks there. Since that would include rapists, murderers, and worse sorts, now with nothing to limit their behavior, it would be, well, hell.

The sort of picture you paint is the kind of childish, carnival-god sort of thing I got sick of in Sunday School long ago.

Ahh but you are mistaken in thinking that only people of malevolent character would wind up in hell. There are millions of souls who are perfectly decent people and yet who have nothing to do with your conception of god, or any god. In passing, I was painting a rather charitable picture of a god with wits enough to know that no one would turn down eternal salvation and communion if only he were to explain that it exists. That people fail to see the wisdom of the Perfect Explainer is not due to their own intransigence or lack of vision; it is due to the lack of a Perfect Explanation, and indeed I contend the lack of an Explainer.

And yet again, we reach that stalemate where you complain about what god isn't but will not take a crack at explaining what god is, and then I call you on it, and then we're done for a while. I suppose stalemate isn't really the right word - it is more a case of walking away from the chess board, and I don't get that.

 

[Kyanimal]

^ I'm so happy that you used the term "Explainer", as opposed to, "The Decider"!!

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[Kulindahr]

Ahh but you are mistaken in thinking that only people of malevolent character would wind up in hell.

Where did I say that?

There are millions of souls who are perfectly decent people and yet who have nothing to do with your conception of god, or any god.

Define "perfectly decent".

In passing, I was painting a rather charitable picture of a god with wits enough to know that no one would turn down eternal salvation and communion if only he were to explain that it exists. That people fail to see the wisdom of the Perfect Explainer is not due to their own intransigence or lack of vision; it is due to the lack of a Perfect Explanation, and indeed I contend the lack of an Explainer.

It sounded a lot more like a portrayal of a god who wanted pets, not companions, one who would so overwhelm the children that they wouldn't be capable of independent thought.

And yet again, we reach that stalemate where you complain about what god isn't but will not take a crack at explaining what god is, and then I call you on it, and then we're done for a while. I suppose stalemate isn't really the right word - it is more a case of walking away from the chess board, and I don't get that.

In this case, God is sufficiently strong to be willing to risk losing those He loves, in order to gain them, sufficiently wise to know they'll never grow up if they can't grow away.

 

[bankside]

^ I'm so happy that you used the term "Explainer", as opposed to, "The Decider"!!

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

LOL to be fair, if I were and American, I would not have voted for either the Explainer or the Decider...

And Kulindahr, I will respond to those points but I am at the edge of my ability to reason coherently due to a need for sleep...I'll be able to give better consideration to your points in the new day.

Here's hoping I don't have a stroke in the night and move on to the company of all those atheists and non-judeo-christians, and maybe those of generally good character but whose relatively petty foibles mislead them into choosing the blue pill instead of the red one. Then we'd all be in hell, and we'd have to set up a justice system and a police force to begin handling all these rapists you speak of, and we'd be preoccupied once again with creating a just and humane society. I don't think any of us would give in to indolence and indifference in hell, and I'm sure we'd try to make it a better place. Anyway that would take a long time, but I suppose we'd have eternity to work on it, but it would delay my response.

 

[Kyanimal]

Sweet Dreams, bankside! And trust that you shall awaken, in the new day, to continue this discussion, in your most thoughtful way!

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[Kulindahr]

And Kulindahr, I will respond to those points but I am at the edge of my ability to reason coherently due to a need for sleep...I'll be able to give better consideration to your points in the new day.

Here's hoping I don't have a stroke in the night and move on to the company of all those atheists and non-judeo-christians, and maybe those of generally good character but whose relatively petty foibles mislead them into choosing the blue pill instead of the red one. Then we'd all be in hell, and we'd have to set up a justice system and a police force to begin handling all these rapists you speak of, and we'd be preoccupied once again with creating a just and humane society. I don't think any of us would give in to indolence and indifference in hell, and I'm sure we'd try to make it a better place. Anyway that would take a long time, but I suppose we'd have eternity to work on it, but it would delay my response.

Since Hell comes essentially from the Christian scenario, I'm going to try to explain something from that foundation.

One of the main points is that all goodness comes from God; apart from Him there is nothing positive. So those in Hell would have no attributes of justice, goodness, mercy, or anything else; all they'd be left with would be their bad attitudes, vile habits, and such like.
So there would be a lot of indolence and indifference, but a total lack of dedication and diligence; there would be a great deal of selfishness, but no self-sacrifice at all.

 

[bankside]

Okay, so either only those of unalloyed badness can go to hell, or the goodness is stripped from them and the only thing sent to hell is some sort of sinful remnant, reconstituted maybe in some kind of a golem.

Either way, what suffers there? Not our better nature.

By the way you have answered where the presumption of malevolence comes from.

 

[Kulindahr]

Okay, so either only those of unalloyed badness can go to hell, or the goodness is stripped from them and the only thing sent to hell is some sort of sinful remnant, reconstituted maybe in some kind of a golem.

Interesting view. It meshes fairly well with what C. S. Lewis does in The Great Divorce, where what happens in hell is that people get reduced to the bad/sinful things they refuse to give up.

Either way, what suffers there? Not our better nature.

According to the Bible, we have no "better nature".

By the way you have answered where the presumption of malevolence comes from.

I did?