Hillary says she will help struggling Americans. Why Should We Believe that she would?

[TX-Beau]

I do think though that what we are seeing politically is the beginning of the end of the free ride for the rich.

 

[kallipolis]

^ The reality is that people will still keep fucking and producing babies because in most states there is no affordable alternative thanks to the right wingers.

So the outcome is more and more families in poverty with a cycle of poverty related illnesses, poor schools, fewer opportunities and on and on.

Until the US really does take its place as a second world nation with an immensely rich 1% of 1% who hold all the wealth of the nation and staggering levels of child poverty.

With all the people blaming the next level or two below them for all the problems of society.

Sound familiar?

A familiar refrain from one poster in particular.

- - - Updated - - -

I do think though that what we are seeing politically is the beginning of the end of the free ride for the rich.

Wishful thinking.

 

[kallipolis]

I asked Hankerin1075 where people got their "special skills" upthread, didn't get a response. There are places in Texas where there is no Sex Ed, no Planned Parenthood, no access to anything that might educate people how to do family planning. All of which is because Republicans want sluts to be punished.

They also are fond of cutting education, lying in textbooks - undermining the education of everyone, trying to arm teachers who emphatically say they don't want guns, eliminating access to programs that help pay for tuition - raising tuition, and cutting programs like education for the incarcerated - even though the data says that recidivism for that program was far lower than the average - but of course criminals don't deserve handouts. Forget that stopping people from returning to criminal behavior is in everyone's best interest.

So yeah, you are born an American in the Rio Grande Valley, to a family of 10, there are no jobs, your schools are shitty, you have no healthcare 'cause the 'Pubs refuse to accommodate the Negro, the 'Pubs try every year to fuck you over and take the last little tiny bit of State aid you still get - how exactly are you supposed to get those "special skills" that make one worthy of haveing a decent life.

I find the idea that poor people should just suck it the fuck up or go get a better job, completely disgusting. Poor people shouldn't be poor people, we should ALL have a chance for a decent life, where someone else isn't shitting all over you while pretending TV is a luxury you don't deserve.

An impressive post.

 

[jbrown329]

I do think though that what we are seeing politically is the beginning of the end of the free ride for the rich.

Not going to happen. They hold far to much power. Both financial and political. They pretty much own the government in the USA.

 

[gsdx]

What I think about wages is very simple and easy to understand. Some jobs are inherently low paying. Duh! Some demand higher pay. This is good and it is normal.

This all came about because of my post about Trump hiring people from out-of-country to work at his luxury gulf club and hotel. Besides the housekeepers (who do way more than scrub toilets), there were waiting staff and kitchen staff. Trump pays less than $14 per hour with the housekeepers being paid about $10 per hour. You believe that is quite adequate when you know damned well that you wouldn't do those jobs for those wages. Housekeeping, waiting tables, and being a chef is menial labour if you're working in a 1 star hotel, or a greasy spoon. It is not adequate in a luxury hotel.

For the people who come up from Mexico to work for Trump, those wages are probably very high, which is why Trump does not seek workers in the United States. He knows he would have to at least double their wages. That's why so many jobs are going south of the border.

I don't know what you do for a living. I don't particularly care. But if the place where you work decided to close up shop and send it to Mexico, would you move there to do the same job for $10 per hour?

 

[jbrown329]

This all came about because of my post about Trump hiring people from out-of-country to work at his luxury gulf club and hotel. Besides the housekeepers (who do way more than scrub toilets), there were waiting staff and kitchen staff. Trump pays less than $14 per hour with the housekeepers being paid about $10 per hour. You believe that is quite adequate when you know damned well that you wouldn't do those jobs for those wages. Housekeeping, waiting tables, and being a chef is menial labour if you're working in a 1 star hotel, or a greasy spoon. It is not adequate in a luxury hotel.

For the people who come up from Mexico to work for Trump, those wages are probably very high, which is why Trump does not seek workers in the United States. He knows he would have to at least double their wages. That's why so many jobs are going south of the border.

I don't know what you do for a living. I don't particularly care. But if the place where you work decided to close up shop and send it to Mexico, would you move there to do the same job for $10 per hour?

Sure. Here's what you can expect to make south of the border.
http://www.worldsalaries.org/mexico.shtml

 

[kallipolis]

Talk about the wealthy person, and corporations that shift their profits off shore, here's an informative article on Denmark buying information that will enable its tax authorities to identify their tax evaders. An excellent precedent:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...mark-becomes-first-country-to-buy-leaked-data

I quote:

Denmark has become the first country in the world to apparently buy data from the Panama Papers leak, and now plans to investigate whether 500-600 Danes who feature in the offshore archive may have evaded tax.

 

[peeonme]

I am going to put my self out on this;

Some folks, I don't know what percent, are not meant or equipped to do much more than low skill jobs. It has nothing to do with finishing high school or continuing in to college. A person that isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer can get a degree. Most don't, most might "drop out" or just get the over valued high school diploma.

In the old economy these folks could go and get a decent paying job at some factory, in my youth (20's) I worked at an iron foundry, it didn't take a rocket scientist to work there. Then I worked at an auto plant, again it was a no brainer type of work. But, a person could support a family, momma didn't have to work.

The auto plants today have a 2 tiered pay system, new workers get $14-16, older workers with seniority get $28.00, so most young folks going that route won't see the high pay that grandpa did at the big 3, if they are lucky enough to get in.

Forget iron foundries and steel plants, they are gone as well. The days of doing hard work and getting a good paycheck for it have come and gone.

The dilemma is in the fact that while the no brain, hard work, high pay jobs are gone, we still have the workers that were "cut out" for that sort of work. They are the working poor of our nation. No amount of job training will ever make them "smart" (there, I said it) not that they are dumb, no, they are "average".

Average intelligence people generally don't learn on their own, the intellectual curiosity just isn't there. The things that occupy their minds don't lead to learning a skill set that can help them earn a decent living.

I know that this might seem like some condescending put down post, it's really not meant to be, it's just calling it like it is, the jobs that most of them do can be done by anyone. This hardly puts them in demand or gets them a raise on a regular basis.

My point is simple, when our government decided to allow all of the "average manual" work to leave our shores, they didn't think of what to do with the "average people".

 

[TX-Beau]

I am going to put my self out on this;

Some folks, I don't know what percent, are not meant or equipped to do much more than low skill jobs. It has nothing to do with finishing high school or continuing in to college. A person that isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer can get a degree. Most don't, most might "drop out" or just get the over valued high school diploma.

In the old economy these folks could go and get a decent paying job at some factory, in my youth (20's) I worked at an iron foundry, it didn't take a rocket scientist to work there. Then I worked at an auto plant, again it was a no brainer type of work. But, a person could support a family, momma didn't have to work.

The auto plants today have a 2 tiered pay system, new workers get $14-16, older workers with seniority get $28.00, so most young folks going that route won't see the high pay that grandpa did at the big 3, if they are lucky enough to get in.

Forget iron foundries and steel plants, they are gone as well. The days of doing hard work and getting a good paycheck for it have come and gone.

The dilemma is in the fact that while the no brain, hard work, high pay jobs are gone, we still have the workers that were "cut out" for that sort of work. They are the working poor of our nation. No amount of job training will ever make them "smart" (there, I said it) not that they are dumb, no, they are "average".

Average intelligence people generally don't learn on their own, the intellectual curiosity just isn't there. The things that occupy their minds don't lead to learning a skill set that can help them earn a decent living.

I know that this might seem like some condescending put down post, it's really not meant to be, it's just calling it like it is, the jobs that most of them do can be done by anyone. This hardly puts them in demand or gets them a raise on a regular basis.

My point is simple, when our government decided to allow all of the "average manual" work to leave our shores, they didn't think of what to do with the "average people".

Yeah, colleges are full of people with average intelligence, Mad King George went to Harvard and Yale for fuck's sake.

The "government" which is not populated by aliens from another planet didn't "decide to allow" globalization, that was happening anyway. There was and is nothing that Congress or the President of whatever stripe could have done to stop it.

People in office I'm quite sure tried to get the best deal out of it some for all of us, some for their cronies, but I'm going to be blunt also - your steel working job was gone anyway. There was no worker protection extant that was going to save you from competition in Indonesia, you would simply be out of your job when your employer went bankrupt. The real bitch of it is that there are people who are going to get shafted while we adapt to the new terrain, and that sucks, especially if it's you. Has nothing to do with people too stupid to do anything but shovel coal.

That's the bitch of it. Blaming "government" is pointless, since they don't control this and never have, and no matter what The Orange Crusader tells you, those jobs are not coming back..

Things might have been less dire if Globalization didn't also allow Billionaires to park their cash in the Cayman Islands, and a Party which shall remain nameless didn't participate in the rape of our economy. We should all be doing our best to help people who lost their factory jobs to find the education or support, in making themselves relevant in the workforce.

 

[peeonme]

Yeah, colleges are full of people with average intelligence, Mad King George went to Harvard and Yale for fuck's sake.

The "government" which is not populated by aliens from another planet didn't "decide to allow" globalization, that was happening anyway. There was and is nothing that Congress or the President of whatever stripe could have done to stop it.

People in office I'm quite sure tried to get the best deal out of it some for all of us, some for their cronies, but I'm going to be blunt also - your steel working job was gone anyway. There was no worker protection extant that was going to save you from competition in Indonesia, you would simply be out of your job when your employer went bankrupt. The real bitch of it is that there are people who are going to get shafted while we adapt to the new terrain, and that sucks, especially if it's you. Has nothing to do with people too stupid to do anything but shovel coal.

That's the bitch of it. Blaming "government" is pointless, since they don't control this and never have, and no matter what The Orange Crusader tells you, those jobs are not coming back..

Things might have been less dire if Globalization didn't also allow Billionaires to park their cash in the Cayman Islands, and a Party which shall remain nameless didn't participate in the rape of our economy. We should all be doing our best to help people who lost their factory jobs to find the education or support, in making themselves relevant in the workforce.

I must take exception to your assertion that government could do nothing.
We were a sovereign nation with a constitution that allowed congress to levy tariffs, we did not have to enter into NAFT, Gatt, which became the WTO or extend most favored trading status to Red China.

The deals were entered into with the American worker being thrown under the bus in favor of big business, which funds most politicians.

I did not have a steel working job, I was in skilled trades as a tool maker and with the exception of 2009 I continued to make a living
with the knowledge that I was fortunate, not everyone could do what I did for a living.

I managed until retirement, but I saw many with no skill set who just couldn't seem to read a tape measure, let alone work out a math formula go to the class of the working poor, stocking shelves at Walmart while they received food stamps that our government funded by going into debt with Red China, the same country that most of these workers lost their jobs to.

 

[TX-Beau]

I must take exception to your assertion that government could do nothing.
We were a sovereign nation with a constitution that allowed congress to levy tariffs, we did not have to enter into NAFT, Gatt, which became the WTO or extend most favored trading status to Red China.

The deals were entered into with the American worker being thrown under the bus in favor of big business, which funds most politicians.

I did not have a steel working job, I was in skilled trades as a tool maker and with the exception of 2009 I continued to make a living
with the knowledge that I was fortunate, not everyone could do what I did for a living.

I managed until retirement, but I saw many with no skill set who just couldn't seem to read a tape measure, let alone work out a math formula go to the class of the working poor, stocking shelves at Walmart while they received food stamps that our government funded by going into debt with Red China, the same country that most of these workers lost their jobs to.

Sure then you levy your tariff and construct your political walls and your steel mill goes bankrupt and you are still out of a job. Those jobs were leaving, they weren't being forced out by "Government."

This has nothing to do with the relative intelligence of steel workers.

 

[Kabluey]

Sure then you levy your tariff and construct your political walls and your steel mill goes bankrupt and you are still out of a job. Those jobs were leaving, they weren't being forced out by "Government."

This has nothing to do with the relative intelligence of steel workers.

The days of punitive tariffs are over.
However there is a case to be made for ensuring companies that wish to do business in the USA should follow the country's labour and safety standards and environmental standards.

At the same time as re-leveling the playing field, it improves working and environmental conditions in the countries that have taken US jobs.

 

[Kabluey]

I don't take what I have for granted. I work hard for what I have. I earn what I have. It is not given to me. Again, you guys are just not getting it. You write long diatribes in response yet say essentially nothing of any substance. Just the same nonsence over and over.

It simply sounds like you're a working class person (as are most people) who is glad to be able to look down upon poorer people (wanting to believe you're somehow better than them).

Hardly the same as being aspirational.

 

[peeonme]

Sure then you levy your tariff and construct your political walls and your steel mill goes bankrupt and you are still out of a job. Those jobs were leaving, they weren't being forced out by "Government."

This has nothing to do with the relative intelligence of steel workers.

Government surrendered these jobs, knowing full well that they were pulling the rug from under many American families, Bill Clinton
was the guy who signed the death warrant on the middle class unskilled worker.

As for relative intelligence, there will always be people that are not able to do high functioning work, I have seen programs where they take a guy and "train" him to be a machinist, he can turn some cranks and pull some handles and needs someone to hold his hand all day.
It's not a put down, just a fact of life, not all people are able to do much more than menial labor jobs, the ones that paid well were sent to China with Clintons blessings.

Had congress not surrendered it's power to levy tariffs we could have kept the companies in a position where they could compete with foreign manufactures.

We are where we are at, we need to understand how we got here, it's a lesson that America needs to learn. Both parties have screwed over the middleclass of our nation. Especially those who were the most vulnerable.

 

[jbrown329]

Yeah, colleges are full of people with average intelligence, Mad King George went to Harvard and Yale for fuck's sake.

The "government" which is not populated by aliens from another planet didn't "decide to allow" globalization, that was happening anyway. There was and is nothing that Congress or the President of whatever stripe could have done to stop it.

People in office I'm quite sure tried to get the best deal out of it some for all of us, some for their cronies, but I'm going to be blunt also - your steel working job was gone anyway. There was no worker protection extant that was going to save you from competition in Indonesia, you would simply be out of your job when your employer went bankrupt. The real bitch of it is that there are people who are going to get shafted while we adapt to the new terrain, and that sucks, especially if it's you. Has nothing to do with people too stupid to do anything but shovel coal.

That's the bitch of it. Blaming "government" is pointless, since they don't control this and never have, and no matter what The Orange Crusader tells you, those jobs are not coming back..

Things might have been less dire if Globalization didn't also allow Billionaires to park their cash in the Cayman Islands, and a Party which shall remain nameless didn't participate in the rape of our economy. We should all be doing our best to help people who lost their factory jobs to find the education or support, in making themselves relevant in the workforce.

You fucking do what some other countries have done TARIFFS. They protect their economies. While ours was sold to the lowest bidder.

 

[jbrown329]

Sure then you levy your tariff and construct your political walls and your steel mill goes bankrupt and you are still out of a job. Those jobs were leaving, they weren't being forced out by "Government."

This has nothing to do with the relative intelligence of steel workers.

Then you tell shitholes like China that if they manipulate their fucking currency NOTHING they fucking produce will cross our borders. The largest economy in the world won't take their cheap poisoned shit. If it weren't for fucking trade deals, China would still be a 4th world nation. Living in mud huts.

 

[jbrown329]

The days of punitive tariffs are over.
However there is a case to be made for ensuring companies that wish to do business in the USA should follow the country's labour and safety standards and environmental standards.

At the same time as re-leveling the playing field, it improves working and environmental conditions in the countries that have taken US jobs.

That will never happen until elections are 100% publicly financed. Because the corporations own the government.

 

[jbrown329]

Government surrendered these jobs, knowing full well that they were pulling the rug from under many American families, Bill Clinton
was the guy who signed the death warrant on the middle class unskilled worker.

As for relative intelligence, there will always be people that are not able to do high functioning work, I have seen programs where they take a guy and "train" him to be a machinist, he can turn some cranks and pull some handles and needs someone to hold his hand all day.
It's not a put down, just a fact of life, not all people are able to do much more than menial labor jobs, the ones that paid well were sent to China with Clintons blessings.

Had congress not surrendered it's power to levy tariffs we could have kept the companies in a position where they could compete with foreign manufactures.

We are where we are at, we need to understand how we got here, it's a lesson that America needs to learn. Both parties have screwed over the middleclass of our nation. Especially those who were the most vulnerable.

Profits. All that matters are profits. Fuck the workers. Profits. Profits and more profits.

 

[TX-Beau]

You fucking do what some other countries have done TARIFFS. They protect their economies. While ours was sold to the lowest bidder.

ALL of which you arbitrate by trade treaties. Tariffs get you nowhere when what you are losing is labor.

 

[TX-Beau]

Government surrendered these jobs, knowing full well that they were pulling the rug from under many American families, Bill Clinton
was the guy who signed the death warrant on the middle class unskilled worker.

As for relative intelligence, there will always be people that are not able to do high functioning work, I have seen programs where they take a guy and "train" him to be a machinist, he can turn some cranks and pull some handles and needs someone to hold his hand all day.
It's not a put down, just a fact of life, not all people are able to do much more than menial labor jobs, the ones that paid well were sent to China with Clintons blessings.

Had congress not surrendered it's power to levy tariffs we could have kept the companies in a position where they could compete with foreign manufactures.

We are where we are at, we need to understand how we got here, it's a lesson that America needs to learn. Both parties have screwed over the middleclass of our nation. Especially those who were the most vulnerable.

Of come on with the monolithic "government." That means nothing except give you a target to complain at.

IF you have a specific complaint about NAFTA or TPP what is it?

So what if some people are stupid, they aren't the ones outsourcing anything.