Hillary's Libya PUSH

[BenDan]

two part series in the NY Times in early March - about the Libyan conflict and specifically Hillary's role in pushing President Obama to act - it was a 50/50 type of deal within his advisors/cabinet and she made it happen

I respect people/politicians who authentically talk and act based on their conviction and loathe those who try to have it both ways. IMO Hills consistently talks out of both sides of her mouth and this is a prime example. She speaks of her foreign policy experience as being a huge plus yet she runs from the decisions themselves. The author here agrees

Throughout the campaign, Clinton has tried to have her cake and eat it too. She has flaunted her leadership in the war as a sign of her supposed foreign policy experience, yet, at the same moment, strived to distance herself from the disastrous results of said war.

The decision to remove Qaddafi, pushed by Hills, has been an epic disaster.

Thousands of Libyans have been killed, and this violent chaos has sparked a flood of refugees. Hundreds of thousands of Libyan civilians have fled, often on dangerous smuggling boats. The U.N. estimates more than 400,000 people have been displaced.

It appears that Hills not only pushed for this but when there was potential for dialogue/negotiations about a ceasefire early on ....... she would have none of it

Little-discussed secret audio recordings released in early 2015 reveal how top Pentagon officials, and even one of the most progressive Democrats in Congress, were so wary of Clinton’s warmongering that they corresponded with the regime of Libyan dictator Muammar Qaddafi in hopes of pursuing some form of diplomacy.

Good read. The bigger two part NYT piece even more so but this is good for the short and sweet crowd.

http://www.salon.com/2016/03/02/eve...illary_clinton_led_nato_bombing_of_libya_was/

 

[rareboy]

I think that if the US can just accept that it doesn't have to try to bring 'freedom' to the rest of the world...somehow we'll all be able to limp along just fine. US foreign policy has been a complete disaster since the Second World War...but in a dick display contest with the USSR (now tinymeat Putin) and the Chinese...the US is constantly being set up to fail.

The Bush Doctrine was the culmination of a humiliating half century of adventurism by the military industrial complex and multi-national oil companies.

As far as Libya? The US didn't play any greater role in this regime change than NATO and the Europeans. It all can't be laid at the front door of the White House.

 

[BenDan]

I think that if the US can just accept that it doesn't have to try to bring 'freedom' to the rest of the world...somehow we'll all be able to limp along just fine. US foreign policy has been a complete disaster since the Second World War...but in a dick display contest with the USSR (now tinymeat Putin) and the Chinese...the US is constantly being set up to fail.

The Bush Doctrine was the culmination of a humiliating half century of adventurism by the military industrial complex and multi-national oil companies.

As far as Libya? The US didn't play any greater role in this regime change than NATO and the Europeans. It all can't be laid at the front door of the White House.

if you read the NYT piece - again very long - Susan Rice basically told the French to fuck off and that we were done with bad wars

but then Hills went to work

I think the point about Libya is that Hills is "hawkish" and so when she tries to pawn off Iraq as "we/I had bad info" she sorta went back to the well here. The NYT piece also suggested that Pres. Obama is not a proponent of action - which is a source of major consternation from the Repubs. That Hills is a do-er. That as a quality is not bad, but it's important to have the right decision or strategy if you're going to be that way.

Totally agree with you on the rest

 

[opinterph]

(From linked article)

[Novelist and freelance journalist, David Mizner] shows how many of the excuses, especially the allegation — spread forcefully by Clinton — that Qaddafi was on the verge of carrying out genocide against his people, were largely baseless.

The “excuses and allegations” were widespread at the time. The UN Security Council approved a “No-Fly Zone” and “‘All Necessary Measures’ to Protect Civilians” on March 17, 2011.

In cities and towns across the country, Libyans took to the streets to claim their basic human rights. …

Faced with this opposition, Qaddafi began attacking his people. … Then we took a series of swift steps in a matter of days to answer Qaddafi’s aggression. … I made it clear that Qaddafi had lost the confidence of his people and the legitimacy to lead, and I said that he needed to step down from power.

In the face of the world’s condemnation, Qaddafi chose to escalate his attacks, launching a military campaign against the Libyan people. Innocent people were targeted for killing. Hospitals and ambulances were attacked. Journalists were arrested, sexually assaulted, and killed. Supplies of food and fuel were choked off. Water for hundreds of thousands of people in Misurata was shut off. Cities and towns were shelled, mosques were destroyed, and apartment buildings reduced to rubble. Military jets and helicopter gunships were unleashed upon people who had no means to defend themselves against assaults from the air.

Remarks by the President in Address to the Nation on Libya (The White House; March 28, 2011)

Three years later the President suggested that the US and its allies failed to apply sufficient military power to control the situation in Libya.

I’ll give you an example of a lesson I had to learn that still has ramifications to this day. And that is our participation in the coalition that overthrew Qaddafi in Libya. I absolutely believed that it was the right thing to do. ... Had we not intervened, it’s likely that Libya would be Syria. ... And so there would be more death, more disruption, more destruction. But what is also true is that I think we [and] our European partners underestimated the need to come in full force if you’re going to do this.

– President Obama, August 2014 [Link]

---

two part series in the NY Times in early March

Hillary Clinton, ‘Smart Power’ and a Dictator’s Fall

A New Libya, With ‘Very Little Time Left’​

 

[evanrick]

Hillary Clinton never met a war she didnt like. The place is a disaster because of her.

 

[TX-Beau]

Hillary Clinton never met a war she didnt like. The place is a disaster because of her.

 

[Kulindahr]

Hillary Clinton never met a war she didnt like. The place is a disaster because of her.

It would have been a disaster with or without her; she just changed the shape of the disaster with her hawkishness.

 

[kallipolis]

“let the die be cast!”, or “Let the game be ventured!”

When Gadaffi voluntarily owned up to developing a nuclear weapons industry...dismantled by British experts, with Gadaffi's cooperation ....there was no doubt that The West would terminate Gadaffi's regime. Gadaffi was "invited" to take his family, and live in exile. His pride, and poor judgement cost him his life.

Colonel T. E. Lawrence recognised in 1917 that the Arab world was awash with tribal rivalries that predated the Ottoman conquest. Nothing has changed. Good intentions are often led astray by those intent on cashing in on chaos.

 

[rareboy]

....they have to be careful not to choke on sour grapes.....

 

[BenDan]

The Iraq War and other conflicts: Hillary with the Repubs - Bernie Knew What Was Right

Past events and decisions are a good indicator of future behavior

Iraq, Libya

Her actions were pro war - she basically talked the Pentagon to attack Libya - the results of which are horrific - she wanted regime change and denied a ceasefire

And now doing the same with Syria

Bernie is the best choice on this and all issues

 

[BenDan]

looks like the editorial board is making editorial decisions as to threads and placing new posts within old posts

the video above is about Hillary's warmongering ways

Iraq, Libya and now Syria

not the same as her "Libya Push" which was a specific article

shame that the moderators here feel it necessary to insert themselves when it's not necessary

 

[opinterph]

shame that the moderators here feel it necessary to insert themselves when it's not necessary

“Past events and decisions are a good indicator of future behavior”

 

[evanrick]

Hillarys down in the polls, the Clinton people are desperate to 'pivot' but Clinton stayed in the race till the end too, why is team Clinton so out of touch?

 

[Kabluey]

Hillarys down in the polls, the Clinton people are desperate to 'pivot' but Clinton stayed in the race till the end too, why is team Clinton so out of touch?

Down in some, up in others.
Unfortunately the media like to publish each as though they mean something.
That's the worst thing about the plethora of polling companies, collectively they provide little insight into voter behaviour.
The worst offenders, push pollers, are publishing results intended to shape opinion, rather than reflect it.

 

[rareboy]

^ This is why the only polling to trust is Five Thirty Eight

In the meantime...Hillary has an 87%-94% chance of winning California.

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/primary-forecast/california-democratic/

 

[BenDan]

“Past events and decisions are a good indicator of future behavior”

yes for elected officials there is nothing else to go on is there ?

and if you watch the video you'll see that Libya is just one of many issues mentioned regarding Hillary's hawkish history

which is NOT consistent with progressive ideology

 

[BenDan]

Hillarys down in the polls, the Clinton people are desperate to 'pivot' but Clinton stayed in the race till the end too, why is team Clinton so out of touch?

Libya and polls are clearly not connected

Please try and keep your thoughts SOMEWHAT associated with the appropriate threads

This is about Hillary's LEADERSHIP on our involvement in Libya - pushing the admin to follow her

your incessant one note commentary absent of context is self defeating

 

[BenDan]

When Gadaffi voluntarily owned up to developing a nuclear weapons industry...dismantled by British experts, with Gadaffi's cooperation ....there was no doubt that The West would terminate Gadaffi's regime. Gadaffi was "invited" to take his family, and live in exile. His pride, and poor judgement cost him his life.

Colonel T. E. Lawrence recognised in 1917 that the Arab world was awash with tribal rivalries that predated the Ottoman conquest. Nothing has changed. Good intentions are often led astray by those intent on cashing in on chaos.

so your point is Hilary's POV here and PUSH of her desires was a good and just thing ?

 

[Kulindahr]

I looked at this thread title this morning and my mind came up with an image with Obama telling Hillary to "Push!", and out comes Libya into the hands of a waiting doctor.......

 

[Kabluey]

so your point is Hilary's POV here and PUSH of her desires was a good and just thing ?

I'm no expert on the matter, but I do remember that Libya was destabilised at the time, that the Arab Spring predates the Libyan civil war, and that Libya had partially dismantled chemical and nuclear weapon programmes that would have been accessed by Isis related groups in the event of a government overthrow.