Homophobia in Popular Fiction

[Telstra]

if the story is realistic and interesting yeah why not.

 

[Dark Adept]

Well I've read books with homophobic refrences but they've never really changed how i looked at the author or judge the rest of the book, but it does set me agaist the character(s) who made the reference or are homophobic. But the reverse is true for me, I read a series by Mercedes Lackey where the hero was gay and that made me go out and buy more of her books, all of which i've enjoyed btw.

 

[pausanias_usa]

After reading that, I remembered the bad taste that had been left in my mouth by the stereotypically-negative images of homosexuality in the film version of The Shining . . .

? And just what were those? Been a while, but I can't recall any.

(Oh, wait: you mean the ghostly party scene with the animal-masked figure giving head?
Not sure if that was male or female?)

 

[sabot3ur]

waitwaitwait,

in the shining, I believe that those figures mentioned were ones discussed in length in the scene where jack gets drunk in the bar with all the ghosts. it was a halloween party, and a bisexual guy had dumped his man lover for a woman, but his gay ex was trying to win him back while being made a mockery of by everyone there. he was told he would have a chance if he wore a dog costume to the party and acted as if the ex was his master, but it was really just a cruel joke. so I wouldn't say Stephen King was being homophobic in this case, he just portrayed the horrible nature of the guests that had died in the hotel.

(sorry if that's garbled, I haven't read the book in quite a while and was typing fast haha.)

 

[sabot3ur]

but if you're talking solely about the film version, the author had nothing to do with it; Stanley Kubrick just picked out all the shocking parts that would sell.

 

[luminum]

I hear you. It's oftentimes disparaging to read those kinds of portrayals when they're clearly not just coincidental to the character in that isolated text. When it's apparent that the other is thematically associating homosexuals with villainy or pity or whatnot, it makes the reading experience more exasperating.

I haven't read much that's been considered pop fiction or contemporary recently, but I certainly recall it in some books I read as a kid.

It's good to affiliate one's self with authors who portray homosexuality as it is: morally neutral. That way, you get believable queer characters who may happen to be evil and dastardly as much as you'll encounter those who are great supporting and tarring protagonists.

It was always a relief to see a character who wasn't restricted by heteronormativity but was lovable or respected in a work of fiction, even if they weren't the main character.

Currently I'm reading The Blind Assassin by Margaret Atwood, who is a well known sci-fi/feminist writer. As her work usually involves several women, it's comforting to know that she's going to incorporate realistic and non-sinister overtones at times and that any portrayals of homosexuality will most likely not be written from a perspective of disdain. That way you know that any negative portrayals of homosexuality are being negatively portrayed because of the circumstances of the acts as they relate to the characters, and not because the acts themselves or "evil" or "disgusting." For example, she writes about a fictitious setting in which children were sold off as child prostitutes, boys and girls, and you know that the sinister feeling is because it's children being taken advantage of, not that homosexual pedophilia is "even more terrible" than the heterosexual pedophilia.

I think I ranted, but I suppose it's because I appreciated the topic, haha.

 

[luminum]

In the sense that critics felt the book's criticism of homophobia was diluted or vague in the movie version, I'm not surprised, seeing as it came from Mel Gibson. So not horrified, but disappointed.

 

[luminum]

I dunno, the way the counter argument to Faye and her husband seems so baseless and hyperbolic that it appears to be a satire. Did you get the feeling from the book that the extremely cryptic and apocalyptic perspective on the sin of the protagonist results in a concealed irony?

 

[JNewYork]

In the new movie with Will Smith, "Hancock," there's a scene where he is flipping through a magazine looking at various superheroes. His comments to each one are:

"Homo. Homo. Homo."

That's an outrage. All the kids going to see that movie are being indoctrinated to continue their bigotry and hatred.

 

[luminum]

I don't think I recall that at all, and I wouldn't see Marvel doing that seeing as they're pretty open about their support of gay superheroes in their comics.

 

[luminum]

And even in "It," one of the acts that heralds the return of Pennywise (all usually violent or despicable acts) is the drowning of a young gay man by some teenaged thugs, which was based off of a true incident in the town he set it in. A young man was thrown off a bridge into the river by some punks because of his sexuality despite his pleading that he couldn't swim. I doubt it's really that King is a homophobe.

 

[gaz1978]

I'm not sure what the inference is with this thread.

Are you suggesting in some way that no characters in any book should be homophobic?

Are we all in danger of suggesting that what a character says/does in a book in some way makes the author a homophobe?

I love James Ellroy's books, and they are FULL of racist and homophobic references and characters. But they need to be - they're set in LA in the 40s and 50s. Does that mean Ellroy is a racist and a homophobe?

Any author will tell you that you have to be true to your characters and your story.

 

[luminum]

I can't speak for everyone, but my impression is that we're debating whether or not indications of homophobia within novels does or does not reflect on the author, not asserting as a group that they do.

 

[rayek]

I just finished reading a book called "Hero" by Perry Moore.

I only mention it because the super hero thing was brought up. Perry Moore has a great essay on his website about the treatment of gay super heros in various comics and that is part of the reason he decided to write his own novel to give a positive spin to a gay super hero.

I really enjoyed the book... I finished it in two days... took longer to find the book then to read it.

I'd post a link to the essay but I can't seem to post links yet... however if you search for Perry Moore Hero in google you'll find his website and a link to his essay on the treatment of gay heros in comics.

 

[condreye]

Nabokov's brother Sergei was gay and died in a Nazi concentration camp. He talks about this in his memoir Speak Memory. One of his major characters, Charles Kinbote in Pale Fire is homosexual and delusional. On the other hand Humbert's coworker Gaston Godin in Lolita is an obese gay Frenchman whose social relations w' Humbert are described as "free of any polite strain" In Pnin, Victor Pnin's art instructor Lake's homosexuality is alluded to in a matter-of-fact nonjudgemental manner.
I don't think Nabokov can be dismissed as a homopnobe in this simplistic way.

 

[luminum]

I just finished reading a book called "Hero" by Perry Moore.

I only mention it because the super hero thing was brought up. Perry Moore has a great essay on his website about the treatment of gay super heros in various comics and that is part of the reason he decided to write his own novel to give a positive spin to a gay super hero.

I really enjoyed the book... I finished it in two days... took longer to find the book then to read it.

I'd post a link to the essay but I can't seem to post links yet... however if you search for Perry Moore Hero in google you'll find his website and a link to his essay on the treatment of gay heros in comics.

Actually, Perry Moore's impetus was a lot of hot air, in my opinion. He was outraged by the fact that Northstar was killed by a mind-controlled Wolverine and viewed it as the posterboy for mutant cool killing one of Marvel's most prominent gay characters.

He then went on to list how comicbook characters were being treated with disdain and listed all these instances of queer comicbook characters that had bad things happen to them. However, the problem with his list was that most of the things that happened to the characters were run of the mill things to happen to comicbook superheroes. Jean Grey has died 4 times (by now), Magneto--who can count?, Wolverine at least twice...the fact of the matter is that "dead" characters always come back. Always. And that Moore viewed this so traumatically only shows that either he's not as big a comicbook buff as he claims or that he took special exception to Northstar's death because he's gay. In fact, some of the things he listed that happened to queer character that he uses as evidence of violence toward queer comic superheroes happened to them before writers revealed them as queer.

For example, he cited Karma, a lesbian X-Man, who was possessed by one of the major psychic villains, the Shadow King, and became monstrously obese. But Karma actually ends up losing all that weight and saving a young girl's life during the process all before anything was ever hinted at her being a lesbian. In fact, that storyline happened 20 years before she came out as a lesbian.

Given the time that he wrote his list, it's interesting that he conveniently ignored any of the other examples of positive queer comicbook characters occurring during that time, such as the on-panel openness of Wiccan and Hulkling's gay relationship, Karolina Dean and Xavin's quasi-lesbian/transgender relationship, the fan-promoted development of a minor gay mutant teen, Anole, to a main character, or the fact that Northstar was revived in the very next issue as an assassin for the Hand, kicked the crap out of Wolverine in the following two, and then was delivered to SHIELD to be de-brainwashed at the end of the storyarc. In fact, in further evidence against Moore's assertions of mutant cool vs. gay, the arc ends with Wolverine asking why it was taking SHIELD so much longer to deprogram Northstar than they took deprogramming him and Nick Fury states that maybe its taking longer because Northstar was probably getting over the trauma of being killed by a long-time friend, as both Northstar and Wolverine originally served on the same superhero team together in comicbook history.

And if nothing else puts Moore's foot in his mouth, Northstar reappeared as a good guy last year and is now with the X-Men. If you compare that to one of Marvel's most popular straight characters, Jean Grey, Northstar died and came back to the X-Men in two years, whereas Jean Grey's been dead for at least five years now...

Sorry, it's a rant, and I'm sure Moore's book is decent (I actually have a copy of it in my room), but I felt like his essay and his list and his reasons for writing it, all that vitriol was really unfounded if you look at least within Marvel Comics.

 

[neoachilles]

Has anyone read J. D. Salinger's The Catcher in the Rye?

Salinger, who was probably just as famous for being a recluse as for being a prominent writer, died a few months back. This particular work of his is often cited as being one of "the best" and one of "the most influential" American novels of the 20th century. It's also one of the most frequently assigned for reading in public schools in the US.

I've been meaning to read The Catcher in the Rye since I was like 10 years old, yet for one reason or another never got around to it until this week.

I was really shocked to find a number of references to homosexuality (or perceived homosexuality) in the novel. I just wasn't expecting them, given when the book was originally published and the fact that it is so often taught in public schools.

Have you read it, and what did you think about the homosexual references?

It's been the better part of a decade since I read the book, but I know what you mean. Honestly, I always thought that Holden was a bit of a closet-case, himself. I think he always went on about someone trying get fresh with him (whether or not that was actually the case, I don't know--I never quite trusted the character). Also, didn't Holden try to hook up with a prostitute, only to get cold feet at the last second?

Getting back to the topic at hand, I've been reading a series of books for the past decade called the Wheel of Time. The original author Robert Jordan died a few years back, but someone else has picked up the mantle. The majority of the characters are heterosexual, but there are allusions now and then to homosexual relationships. Two women, Moiraine and Siuan, grew up as best friends in the White Tower, learning to become sorceresses. In the White Tower, it was very common for the young women to become "pillow friends," a term which carries a sexual undertone.

One of the series' antagonists, Elaida, was in fact a lesbian. Her enemies kept tabs on her by planting a woman with whom Elaida had been in a relationship to seduce her. In another case, one of the main villains, a woman named Aran-gar, is discovered to be the reincarnation of a man. As a woman, Aran-gar becomes more and more comfortable exploring the pleasures of both men and women.