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House Passes Health Care Reform

I'm already in this situation - it's called my Insurance Company. The Insurance Companies are the ones that make decisions now - not patients, not doctors - its the insurance industy. To hell with this for-profit bullshit. My life has had a huge negative impact as a DIRECT result of the for-profit nature of our healthcare system. I can't believe all the ignorance of people on this forum and elsewhere who defend the status-quo of the current WORST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM OF THE DEVELOPED WORLD. It's obvious to me that anyone who defends the current system has NEVER been sick, and has NEVER had to deal with the bullshit coming from the insurance industry. You claim this healthcare reform is a theft of freedom - but that freedom we don't have for the government to take away anyhow! The insurance industry - NOT THE GOVERNMENT - is the biggest threat to freedom in this country today. If it were not for my insurance company telling me "No." I would have had medical treatment SIX YEARS AGO that I still need today. Instead, I've had to ask them for permission, and the only anwswer they have is "No."

How dare any of you defend the status quo.

And you think the government is going to approve things any faster? I mean, get real. We're talking about a government that can't even manage their own finances, let alone manage (effectively) the complete healthcare of millions and millions of people. Medicare/medicaid and Social security, and their worsening financial situation are proof of that.
 
Right, but how?

I wish I knew. You are a really bright guy what do you suggest? What we have now isn't working. They seem not to care what the people want and think they are above us for some reason. This much I know more and more of us are getting fed up with business as usual. These are difficult times and the solution will require responsible policy that doesn't overburden the next five generations with ridiculous debt.

It is time to offer tax incentives to American companies to bring mfg jobs back here. Over restrictive government regulation and tax policies have a lot to do with us losing them. Our economy isn't based on anything real now just numbers on paper traded among rich people. I did not vote for Ross Perot but he was prophetic in the effect that Nafta and the loss of mfg jobs being the biggest problem we would have to face. If I knew then what I know now perhaps I would have voted differently.
 
And you think the government is going to approve things any faster? I mean, get real. We're talking about a government that can't even manage their own finances, let alone manage (effectively) the complete healthcare of millions and millions of people. Medicare/medicaid and Social security, and their worsening financial situation are proof of that.

As far as healthcare is concerned if the government managed their finances along the lines that private insurance companies do (yearly increases of 10%+) they would have a much easier time managing the programs they administer and would not be in a worsening financial situation.

I mean get real. ;)
 
so when they come and talk with your grandma about making plans to die to reduce the carbon footprint

DUDE!

I'm telling you, please at least try to exercise your brain when you hear something, even if it's from a source you've come to believe.

It's simply not healthy to be that gullible.

BS detector needed pronto!
 
It is time to offer tax incentives to American companies to bring mfg jobs back here. Over restrictive government regulation and tax policies have a lot to do with us losing them.

In an effort to interject some actual facts here the U.S. is, far and away, the number 1 manufacturing country in the world and productivity gains among U.S. workers have as much to do with the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country as anything you can name.

Its easy to demonize foreign countries who take our jobs away but far more difficult to demonize workers being more productive even if its with the help of a machine.
 
As far as healthcare is concerned if the government managed their finances along the lines that private insurance companies do (yearly increases of 10%+) they would have a much easier time managing the programs they administer and would not be in a worsening financial situation.

I mean get real. ;)

I'm not advocating on behalf of insurers, I'm advocating against a government that has shown itself to be completely incapable of running any programs of this size and scope effectively. We have no reason to believe that the biggest expansion of government power since FDR can be done effectively, let alone under the supervision of politicians that seem more concerned with establishing their legacy than actually doing what's best for the nation.
 
In an effort to interject some actual facts here the U.S. is, far and away, the number 1 manufacturing country in the world and productivity gains among U.S. workers have as much to do with the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country as anything you can name.

Its easy to demonize foreign countries who take our jobs away but far more difficult to demonize workers being more productive even if its with the help of a machine.

This is not about demonizing anyone. Small town America is seeing factory after factory close and move out of the country. Customer Service jobs are going away too. How often do you call for service and get someone in India that is barely understandable. In case you haven't noticed unemployment is at 10.2 percent and shows little hope for improvement anytime soon. I am happy for the Mexicans and Chinese if they do well but I want Americans to do well first. You take care of your own first and then share with those outside.
 
In an effort to interject some actual facts here the U.S. is, far and away, the number 1 manufacturing country in the world and productivity gains among U.S. workers have as much to do with the loss of manufacturing jobs in this country as anything you can name.

Its easy to demonize foreign countries who take our jobs away but far more difficult to demonize workers being more productive even if its with the help of a machine.

How many of these productivity increases have to do with Americans working longer and longer hours. Companies place ever more people on salary so they can get sixty hours work for the price of forty. With such high unemployment if someone doesn't work the long hours they are easily replaced with someone who will. In efforts to reduce cost to be even remotely competitive companies hire only part time and temp workers for entire factories so they don't have to pay benefits. Want to work at Nike part time from a temp agency is the only way and they will let you go in a minute if they don't like anything about you and you have no recourse whatever.
 
DUDE!

I'm telling you, please at least try to exercise your brain when you hear something, even if it's from a source you've come to believe.

It's simply not healthy to be that gullible.

BS detector needed pronto!

My BS detector works fine. Your BS detector is under remote control.

I have done my own research firstly to prove Alex Jones wrong. I found out that I was wrong. My BS detector was broken and then realized that it needed fixing.

Tell me, does your current model of enslavement come with freedom of thought?
 
I wish I knew. You are a really bright guy what do you suggest? What we have now isn't working. They seem not to care what the people want and think they are above us for some reason. This much I know more and more of us are getting fed up with business as usual. These are difficult times and the solution will require responsible policy that doesn't overburden the next five generations with ridiculous debt.

We need someone with a billion to spend to find a way to motivate all those who don't presently vote to do so, and to vote for anyone but the Democrats and republicans -- for starters.

We need a constitutional amendment that says you can only be in government as many years as you've been in the private sector, where things intimately tied into government don't count (like law, or lobbying) -- so if you want to run for senator, you have to have spent six years not offset by any other elected service, in something that actually contributes to the GNP.

We need a constitutional amendment that says that in any decision involving individual or minority rights, that view which upholds or increases the greatest liberty for the individual or minority is to prevail.

We need a constitutional amendment stating that only individuals have rights (thus barring corporations, churches, unions, etc. from dumping money into politics).

We need a constitutional amendment that says the budget has to be balanced save in times of declared war or congressionally declared (by a three-fifths vote) national emergency, with a sunset time period on the national emergencies (apply that to presidentially-declared ones, too).

We need a constitutional amendment declaring that ignorance of the law is a strong defense, except in cases where common morals dictate that the act in question was wrong.

We need a constitutional amendment limiting the tax code to as many words as the longest single holy book used by anyone in the country (at the time of the amendment).

We need a constitutional amendment limiting the total amount of GNP which the federal government can take in taxes.

We need a constitutional amendment making the House of Representatives a proportional representation body, by state, so that people can be represented by folks they actually think reflect their views. While we're at it, we should either put term limits on Senators or change back to the old method of letting state legislatures pick them, to make it a deliberative body again.

We need a policy of law that says it's your own damned fault when you do something stupid and get hurt, or if you venture onto someone else's property and get hurt -- call it the Personal Responsibility Act.

But the only party upholding such things is the Libertarian, and they waste time arguing over which of these to do first, and so look rather irrelevant to voters.

It is time to offer tax incentives to American companies to bring mfg jobs back here. Over restrictive government regulation and tax policies have a lot to do with us losing them. Our economy isn't based on anything real now just numbers on paper traded among rich people. I did not vote for Ross Perot but he was prophetic in the effect that Nafta and the loss of mfg jobs being the biggest problem we would have to face. If I knew then what I know now perhaps I would have voted differently.

The only bad thing about NAFTA is that it didn't offer incentives to trade within that membership, or penalties for going outside. On that topic, I'd make a tax structure reflective of the desire to share prosperity with our friends and allies first, with virtually no taxes on companies with all their jobs in the U.S., minimal taxes on those with jobs in North America, moderate taxes on those with jobs throughout the western hemisphere, heavier taxes on those with jobs also in Europe, and crushing taxes on those which have jobs anywhere else (well, maybe an exception for Australia :D ). The taxes would depend on the proportion of total jobs a company has in the various regions, the rate for the portion of all jobs outside the U.S. being set by the "farthest out" zone a company has jobs in.

Fomenting prosperity n Mexico by having free trade is only sensible; we should be good to our neighbors, and prosperity there would help with our illegal [STRIKE]invader[/STRIKE] immigrant problem. The same is true of Canada; we share too much to not be close partners. Extending economic partnership to our own hemisphere is to me just a sensible conclusion from the old Monroe Doctrine; extending it also to Europe (NATO?) just seems good sense.

But on all that -- it comes back to getting people in office to do it, and that takes bucks. What we need is a real libertarian sugar-daddy who believes in freedom enough to dedicate a large amount of his fortune (and life, and sacred honor) to the cause of heaving back the tide of encroaching government.
 
My BS detector works fine. Your BS detector is under remote control.

I have done my own research firstly to prove Alex Jones wrong. I found out that I was wrong. My BS detector was broken and then realized that it needed fixing.


Tell me, does your current model of enslavement come with freedom of thought?

Somehow, I doubt that.

Can you show us what that research was, and point to those sources for us?
 
This is not about demonizing anyone. Small town America is seeing factory after factory close and move out of the country. Customer Service jobs are going away too. How often do you call for service and get someone in India that is barely understandable. In case you haven't noticed unemployment is at 10.2 percent and shows little hope for improvement anytime soon. I am happy for the Mexicans and Chinese if they do well but I want Americans to do well first. You take care of your own first and then share with those outside.

:=D: :=D: :=D:

If you don't take care of your own first, in short order you won't have the capacity tot take care of those outside.

How many of these productivity increases have to do with Americans working longer and longer hours. Companies place ever more people on salary so they can get sixty hours work for the price of forty. With such high unemployment if someone doesn't work the long hours they are easily replaced with someone who will. In efforts to reduce cost to be even remotely competitive companies hire only part time and temp workers for entire factories so they don't have to pay benefits. Want to work at Nike part time from a temp agency is the only way and they will let you go in a minute if they don't like anything about you and you have no recourse whatever.

That's a very important point.

U.S. wages for a long, long time were incredibly competitive worldwide because we had a large and constant influx of immigrants who knew what it was to work hard and not demand a high living standard, but also knew when they were being taken, and so went elsewhere. Of course that was in an America where the small locally-owned establishment was the rule, not the exception it is more and more becoming.

By clamping down on immigration, we changed the economic rules of the game. Our economy was so large compared to the rest of the world that we could get away with it for a long time, but now that the rest of the world is catching up in productivity we're feeling the results of having indulged ourselves for so long. What we've been doing about it is spending money we don't have, spending the future -- spending then hopes and chances of our children by mortgaging them to foreigners.

What should we be doing about it, instead? For now, keeping jobs here, ending deficit spending, getting the balance of trade balanced instead of tilted, ending dependency on foreign imports and thus keeping jobs and money here at home.... In the long run, increasing productivity without turning our workers into slaves, ending regulations that cripple implementation of new technology, and adopting regulations which mirror other countries economic policies toward us (in other words, take the rules they apply to us and apply those to them).

But productivity is the key. That depends on two things: technology, and education. Technology depends on basic research; we need incentives for companies to do that. For education -- well, we have a system that was appropriate to the nineteenth century when people thought in terms of rank; we need to cut loose the ties that prevent innovation in education, as well, instead of trying to stick gimmicks on a system that just doesn't fit this century.

Yet below both education and technology is something else: a drive to achieve, to accomplish, to reach for excellence. Somehow we have to ditch the "gimme" attitude, the entitlement attitude, the attitude that tries to get at the expense of others. And on that -- I have no idea where even to begin, save to try to re-form the country to something where people not only believe that how their lives turn out depends on them, but willingly and confidently embrace that, making it a deep conviction and being proud of it.
 
My BS detector works fine. Your BS detector is under remote control.

I have done my own research firstly to prove Alex Jones wrong. I found out that I was wrong. My BS detector was broken and then realized that it needed fixing.

Tell me, does your current model of enslavement come with freedom of thought?

Here's something important about conspiracy theorists like Jones: the connections they make always feel possible enough that there's no way to disprove them.

That isn't to say they're always wrong. But when the only possible way to prove them wrong is to get inside the system where the conspiracy allegedly exists, you in a no-win game: those people aren't going to let you know or discover if there's a conspiracy or not.
 
My BS detector works fine. Your BS detector is under remote control.

I have done my own research firstly to prove Alex Jones wrong. I found out that I was wrong. My BS detector was broken and then realized that it needed fixing.

Tell me, does your current model of enslavement come with freedom of thought?

lmfao, dude I didn't even mention Jones. I didn't know where you got that from. I figured it was some political figure since the whole death panels thing came from Palin and her ilk.

But it figures that you got that from Jones too. The man owns your soul. So sad.
 
Oh -- the soap box stunt.

That's a throw-away, 'cause they know it won't stick in conference.


I haven't seen any indication that's true.

What makes you so certain?
 
Yep -- put your money where your mouth is. All the abortion supporters should get together and set up Abortion Available America, your triple-A service for dispensing of [STRIKE]responsibility[/STRIKE] unwanted [STRIKE]offspring[/STRIKE] tissues.

Seriously, is there anything more evil and tyrannical than coercing people into paying for something they regard as immoral?

You mean like war, crony capitalism, "faith based" bullshit?
 
What exactly did the House pass? Did they read it all and know its contents? When I looked at H.R. 3962, I lost count the number of times the words tax, taxes and related words were used. Here's what is said on page 310:


In the event the the above scenario happens, will this cause employers to cut jobs, and for that matter, put a freeze on hiring? Will they pass along this cost to consumers somehow? Do Americans want the government deciding what is acceptable and unacceptable coverage? In short, how will 1990 pages of legalese affect the lives of the citizens of The United States of America?

That's something I can't seem to get across to a lot of liberals who hate corporations blindly: you can't punish a corporation, you can only punish its customers.

Penalties like that should be aimed at the people responsible for making the decisions.

Oh -- and corporations shouldn't be allowed to donate money to anything remotely political (like, the Mormon church, even).
 
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