How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights...?

[TX-Beau]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

I'm not gonna support anything from an institution that originally discriminated against homosexuality...

Like the Republican party?

 

[HenryReardon]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

I'm not picking at nits. I'm telling you the way most hate crime statutes read. They do vary somewhat, but that is the general thrust. Some statutes do not cover sexual orientation. The federal hate crimes bill that was introduced last session limited the definition to violent crimes against persons. However since I'm not picking at nits, the general definition above is adequate.

It doesn't bother you that so-called 'hate crime' statues create a special class of victim. Whatever happened to equal protection?

Beating up someone (assault) is a crime. Why should it be a worse crime because the victim is black? or gay? Aren't we creating a special class of victim here?

 

[HenryReardon]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Yeah, I had to think about this, because I generally agree with you, but I can't really agree that my country is an affront to human decency.

I suppose one could excuse him because he is, according to earlier posts, very young - with all that entails.

 

[construct]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

It doesn't bother you that so-called 'hate crime' statues create a special class of victim. Whatever happened to equal protection?

Beating up someone (assault) is a crime. Why should it be a worse crime because the victim is black? or gay? Aren't we creating a special class of victim here?

Well no. We aren't creating special classes of victims. The mere association of a victim with a protected class does not make the crime a hate crime.

We are taking account of motive. Premeditated murder and heat of passion manslaughter are punished differently because the motive is different, even though dead is dead. This is not a violation of equal protection. The distinction applies equally to all.

Now we do punish crimes differently on the basis of the victim. Crimes against policemen are punished more severely. Crimes against children are punished more severely. And this is because of the identity of the victim. For the above stated reasons, hate crimes do not create special classes of victims crimes against which are automatically punished more severely.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

If you get into a fight with a drunk redneck because he thinks you pushed him in line for the bathroom it usually ends with a bruise and some invective, if three drunk rednecks corner you because they want to bash a fag, you're not getting out of that without help or serious damage. The first is an altercation, the second they are specifically trying to hurt you.

I've been in both situations, and they are not the same.

 

[HenryReardon]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Now we do punish crimes differently on the basis of the victim. Crimes against policemen are punished more severely. Crimes against children are punished more severely. And this is because of the identity of the victim. For the above stated reasons, hate crimes do not create special classes of victims crimes against which are automatically punished more severely.

Sure they do. No matter how you whitewash it, you're creating a special class of victim - one whose pain is more important than another's pain. That kind of goes against the principles laid down in our founding documents.

 

[construct]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Sure they do. No matter how you whitewash it, you're creating a special class of victim - one whose pain is more important than another's pain. That kind of goes against the principles laid down in our founding documents.

It's not whitewash. And we already make distinctions on the basis of both state of mind and on the basis of the identity of the victim. This is just one more example of a distinction on the basis of state of mind.

The Wisconsin hate crime law was upheld against First and Fourteenth Amendment challenge by the Supreme Court in Wisconsin v. Mitchell. You might want to review that case. And lest you think it is a liberal opinion, the majority opinion was written by Chief Justice Rhenquist.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/92-515.ZO.html

 

[construct]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Oh, and by the way, the Texas hate crime statute (which does include sexual orientation) was passed by a legislature both houses of which were controlled by Republicans, and it was signed by Gov. Perry (a Republican).

 

[HenryReardon]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

It's not whitewash. And we already make distinctions on the basis of both state of mind and on the basis of the identity of the victim. This is just one more example a distinction on the basis of state of mind.

The Wisconsin hate crime law was upheld against First and Fourteenth Amendment challenge by the Supreme Court in Wisconsin v. Mitchell. You might want to review that case. And lest you think it is a liberal opinion, the majority opinion was written by Chief Justice Rhenquist.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/92-515.ZO.html

Well, as someone famously said in this very forum in the last two days, 'just because a court said so doesn't make it so.'

Seriously, I think it's a very dangerous concept, and it certainly gives the gay-bashers all the more reason to hate us.

 

[construct]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Well, as someone famously said in this very forum in the last two days, 'just because a court said so doesn't make it so.'

Seriously, I think it's a very dangerous concept, and it certainly gives the gay-bashers all the more reason to hate us.

That's all right. You can sit in your room and hate all day. That isn't a hate crime.

 

[EwanSF]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

The great irony of the US political situation is that a lot of the poor, vote against their own best interest. They've bought a bill of goods wrapped up in God and the flag and they defend to the death the policies - that they don't really understand - that keep them in the position they're in.

Aye, the sad by-product of capitalism, I'm afraid.

Anyway, back on topic, I don't really think hate crime legislation so much centres its consideration on the victim, and certainly doesn't try to make up some special class of victim. I think its more to do with the threat an offender poses. I mean, someone with a violent disposition is dangerous enough. But someone with a violent or agressive disposition with a deep loathing a particular group/groups of people is, I would say, a helluva lot more dangerous and should quite rightly be out of circulation for longer, if he acts on his prejudices.

 

[TheTalkingAsshole]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Yeah, been in barfights, been in fights where I was specifically targeted because I came out, they're different things. The level of menace is different, the intention of doing damage is different.

So it's the intent that matters. If I slap you in the face and call you a fag it's a hate crime but if I knock you unconscious with a chair over the head and you end up in a coma because I'm a drunk redneck it's not as bad? Doesn't make sense to me. The crime should be the crime, and not the intent.

If you get into a fight with a drunk redneck because he thinks you pushed him in line for the bathroom it usually ends with a bruise and some invective, if three drunk rednecks corner you because they want to bash a fag, you're not getting out of that without help or serious damage. The first is an altercation, the second they are specifically trying to hurt you.

I've been in both situations, and they are not the same.

I've not been in both situations, for reasons that don't need to be brought up...but I've had a drunk redneck hit me over the head with a beer bottle, (the only time anyone has landed a blow on me)...been ganged up on by several guys because they thought I was an asshole (they were right)...and other things I won't go into so as to try not to sound like a total idiot (I played rugby in my younger days...what can I say). And I've been robbed by a cokehead with a deadly weapon.

The intent didn't matter in any of the situations. I didn't care about their motivation. I just wanted to make sure that they came out of it worse than I did. They did.

 

[construct]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

So it's the intent that matters. If I slap you in the face and call you a fag it's a hate crime . . . .

Well no, that won't get you there. Mere derogatory remarks will probably not prove a hate crime beyond reasonable doubt. The culpable state of mind is that the accused must have selected his victim because of association with a protected category.

The effect of a hate crime is not limited to the victim. A hate crime affects the community of the protected class.

Further, criminal law is not to provide satisfaction to the victim. That is what tort law is for. Criminal law is to protect society.

 

[HenryReardon]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

The intent didn't matter in any of the situations. I didn't care about their motivation. I just wanted to make sure that they came out of it worse than I did. They did.

One of the best lines in a favorite play: "I never heard a corpse ask how it got so dead."

 

[DiamondSkin]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

How do gay Republicans also feel about:

- gays in the military

- gay employment rights

- gay sexual education in public schools (i.e. STD prevention)

 

[TheTalkingAsshole]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Well no, that won't get you there. Mere derogatory remarks will probably not prove a hate crime beyond reasonable doubt. The culpable state of mind is that the accused must have selected his victim because of association with a protected category.

The effect of a hate crime is not limited to the victim. A hate crime affects the community of the protected class.

Further, criminal law is not to provide satisfaction to the victim. That is what tort law is for. Criminal law is to protect society.

Agreed. Same with gang violence, serial rapes, home invasions, etc. Those are crimes of intimidation that scare a community. Probably affecting more people than a hate crime since that affects a smaller number of people in general.

And I didn't say anything about criminal law providing satisfaction for the victim. Having been a "victim" and witness twice in violent crime cases and as someone who has written and been involved in the passage of criminal and tort laws I'm well aware of this.

This being said...I'm not saying I'm totally against hate crime laws. I certainly wouldn't advocate their repeal. Just not something I think is necessary. But I might be able to be convinced otherwise.

 

[construct]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Agreed. Same with gang violence, serial rapes, home invasions, etc. Those are crimes of intimidation that scare a community. Probably affecting more people than a hate crime since that affects a smaller number of people in general.

And I didn't say anything about criminal law providing satisfaction for the victim. Having been a "victim" and witness twice in violent crime cases and as someone who has written and been involved in the passage of criminal and tort laws I'm well aware of this.

This being said...I'm not saying I'm totally against hate crime laws. I certainly wouldn't advocate their repeal. Just not something I think is necessary. But I might be able to be convinced otherwise.

In that case, I'm going to back off on further explanation. I think I've explained enough. I'll just refer everyone one last time to the Mitchell case that I linked above.

Besides, I think DiamondSkin is ready to move on to other important topics.

 

[TheTalkingAsshole]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

How do gay Republicans also feel about:

- gays in the military

- gay employment rights

- gay sexual education in public schools (i.e. STD prevention)

How do gay Republicans also feel about:

- gays in the military The more the merrier

- gay employment rights Not in favor of discrimination based on sexuality in the workplace or in housing...with the exception of churches and other private organizations in the workplace. (well, not that I'm in favor of discrimination in those cases...just don't think they should have to abide).

- gay sexual education in public schools (i.e. STD prevention) Depends...on the age, etc. And I don't know that it should be sexuality specific. Condom use is a generic necessity...regardless of what/who's hole you're putting it in.

 

[youngnihilist]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Talkingasshole - you're on a porn site.

No civil unions aren't enough when there is marriage. it should be either or for the ENTIRE population - so if straights can only do civil marriages, then fine, gays only can too. but if straights get marriage, then gays should be able to also.