How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights...?

[jdoe4822]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

It is my opinion that the federal part of DOMA is unconstitutional, and the state provision merely restates what was already the law. However, litigation of DOMA has not reached any circuit court of appeals. So we don't really know what the courts would do with it, and we won't know for some time because active cases are not challenging the constitutionality of DOMA. The active cases are only arguing over state constitutional law. Thus, DOMA doesn't really take care of it.

well if there are no active cases attempting to get it overturned and no court has yet ruled it unconstitutional, then I would say that DOMA, for the time being, is still the law, and therefore does take care of it.

 

[construct]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

well if there are no active cases attempting to get it overturned and no court has yet ruled it unconstitutional, then I would say that DOMA, for the time being, is still the law, and therefore does take care of it.

For the time being, yes. However, I would expect to see a new case challenging the constitutionality of DOMA within the next three or four years. We're working through the state statutes right now, and DOMA is on hold until that's finished. Besides, Pres. Obama said he favors a significant revision of DOMA that would affect federal recognition of gay marriages and civil unions from states that recognize them.

 

[EwanSF]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

It's also not equal if heterosexual couples have a right to civil/registered unions and marriages, whereas homosexual couples only have a right to one. That's the most half-assed attempt at appeasement i've ever heard of.

Bingo.

Omg. If Christians say you don't have the right to be married then thats that. There shouldnt be any arguing. You have the right to peace liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not a christian marriage.
Forcing a church to marry a homosexual couple would be like forcing all gays to not be gay.

But here we go again, it's not up to the christians. Christians do not have a monopoly on marriage. There are some religions that will marry same sex couples, certain sects of buddhism, the quakers, gay christian churches. But more to the point, secular marriages, which is the question that you never answered earlier. Heterosexual couples have been getting married in secular ceremonies for decades. It doesn't matter what you think with regards to "marriage being the business of the church," there is that reality, so how does our exclusion from that still constitute equality?

 

[TheTalkingAsshole]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

States that recognize civil unions do not offer them to opposite sex couples. In those states, civil unions are for gay couples, and marriage is for straight couples. This is not true in some foreign countries such as France where civil unions are available to both, but marriage is restricted to straights.

The differences are mostly at the federal level and where employment benefits are governed by federal laws such as ERISA.

Occasionally legislative sloppiness has left some protection or other out of a civil union bill, but the courts in those states have extended the right as fulfilling the manifest intent of the legislature. For example, there was a veterans property tax exemption that was left out of the New Jersey bill that was rectified by a court. However, that's an expensive process.

We are not arguing semantics.

Well, thanks for answering for someone else, but I don't think you understand the question. The question is...if we change it to where straights and gays would have equal civil unions recognized by the government and marriages are solely left to churches, then what is the problem? At that point it's just semantics.

 

[jJoEd77]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

^^Ok, so whats the difference between a civil union and a secular marriage? I guess I'm just confused about all the differences.

 

[DiamondSkin]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

That is exactly what I want. If and when I ever find a partner, parties full of pomp, circumstance, and a self centered demanding of attention and gifts are not needed. We date for a while, prob move in together, and at some point along the way we recognize that we trust each other enough to grant power of attorney and those other various legal issues so we sit down with a lawyer, draw up the paperwork, and get on with our lives as normal.

And some of us would rather not spend thousands of dollars on attorney fees to draw up a legalese-ridden contract that wouldn't grant all the rights of marriage and would be a nightmare of paperwork for the rest of our lives.

Good luck finding that boyfriend. Oh, I mean partner. Can't make it sound meaningful, now can we?

As far as Florida Amend 2 goes, as I said, it wasn't perfect. I would have written it to say something along the lines of "the granting of marriage and its associated benefits is the sole decision the legislature" or something along those lines (sorry pre-law was freshman year major only took 2 classes so someone will need to translate it into legalese). My main concern is getting the issues out of the courts and into the hands of the people, or their elected representatives.

The problem is you, a gay man, actively went out and VOTED for legislation that would deny gay men and women the right to civil unions and marriage.

If you want a business partner to sign up a contract with you via an attorney and have the money to do so, than fine. That's your life.

But some of us, actually want equal rights, a meaningful marriage and would rather not deal with legalese bullshit that some would not be able to understand and shouldn't be required too.

Again, good lucking finding that 'partner'.

 

[DiamondSkin]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

^ Omg I know right

But on topic... What I'm trying to say is marriage is religious. marriage. that word. marriage, is a religious bonding of a man a woman and god. because church and state are separate, the church can do whatever they want. so the church has the right to not marry gays.
however, i do believe that the state is required to allow some sort of civil action/union/something or other, that links any one person to another. non-religiously.

So, I guess Hindus can't get married. Because they don't believe in the Christian God.

Marriage has many definitions and you're trying to pigeon-hole it into something exclusive to churches, Jesus and god-fearing Christians....


No one here is saying that churches should be forced to marry gay people. Much like Buddhist temples should be forced to marry Christian couples. That's ridiculous.

Marriage is not exclusive to Christianity.

Gays (well, some of us apparently *sigh*) just want to be granted the same, equal rights as a heterosexual couples when they choose to marry.

 

[DiamondSkin]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Omg. If Christians say you don't have the right to be married then thats that. There shouldnt be any arguing. You have the right to peace liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not a christian marriage.
Forcing a church to marry a homosexual couple would be like forcing all gays to not be gay.

Again, what in Yoda's name makes you think that Christians are the sole authority figures on who and who cannot be married?

Are you trapped in a small Kansas town or something?

You're telling me that only Christians can get married?

 

[jJoEd77]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Ok I suppose gay marriage would be all dandy, but I dont think that a church should ever be forced to marry a same-sex couple. A marriage performed by a court should always be available tho.

 

[jJoEd77]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

^^I was talking about church. Because most of the opposition to gay marriage is from Christians not Buddhists and others.

Also, you don't have to try to insult me. I'm gay too. I don't want to be treated like a second class citizen. Instead of making smugg remarks would be so kind as to provide some information to help me better understand what ure thinking.

 

[DiamondSkin]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Ok I suppose gay marriage would be all dandy, but I dont think that a church should ever be forced to marry a same-sex couple. A marriage performed by a court should always be available tho.

Of course they shouldn't.

Nobody has ever argued that.

What gay person would want to get married in a church that says they're going to hell...?

 

[EwanSF]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

^^I was talking about church. Because most of the opposition to gay marriage is from Christians not Buddhists and others.

Also, you don't have to try to insult me. I'm gay too. I don't want to be treated like a second class citizen. Instead of making smugg remarks would be so kind as to provide some information to help me better understand what ure thinking.

You're a bit sensetive if you think that was an insult. Trust me, I can do much better if ye like

Anyway...

Of course they shouldn't.

Nobody has ever argued that.

What gay person would want to get married in a church that says they're going to hell...?

That gets the church bit covered. Not one single gay person expects, let alone wants to be married by some vile, fire-breathin' baptist that hates them. I ask again, are the marrige ceremonies of religions that would marry us, if it were legal, valid or not? It's outrageous to impose the will of right-wing christianity on other peoples religions, is it not? What about the metropolitan church? As irritating as I find them, they are undoubtedly a christian denomination, and I support thier right to full marriage, legal, as well as the religious mumbo-jumbo. Is that not a case of denial of the freedom in faith that is garunteed by your constitution?

And as for civil marriages, as I said already, if straight people can get them, legaly reffer to them as marriages, introduce thier other half as thier husband or wife, why can't we? As far as I see it, the insistance on the use of seperate language for our relationships is an attempt to keep them relegated to second class status.

 

[construct]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

Well, thanks for answering for someone else, but I don't think you understand the question. The question is...if we change it to where straights and gays would have equal civil unions recognized by the government and marriages are solely left to churches, then what is the problem? At that point it's just semantics.

You're right. I misunderstood your question. Let me try again.

If all the of a state's laws pertaining to marriage were amended to replace "marriage" with "civil union," we would have a lawsuit challenging DOMA pronto because the federal government doesn't recognize civil unions.

 

[construct]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

^^Ok, so whats the difference between a civil union and a secular marriage? I guess I'm just confused about all the differences.

The rights and responsibilities pertaining to marriages and civil unions track separately in the statutes because they are different things designated by different legal terms. It's as simple as that.

Since I have already explained the differences that immediately come to mind, I will simply refer you to my previous posts.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

It's also not equal if heterosexual couples have a right to civil/registered unions and marriages, whereas homosexual couples only have a right to one. That's the most half-assed attempt at appeasement i've ever heard of.

Good observation!

That gets the church bit covered. Not one single gay person expects, let alone wants to be married by some vile, fire-breathin' baptist that hates them. I ask again, are the marrige ceremonies of religions that would marry us, if it were legal, valid or not? It's outrageous to impose the will of right-wing christianity on other peoples religions, is it not? What about the metropolitan church? As irritating as I find them, they are undoubtedly a christian denomination, and I support thier right to full marriage, legal, as well as the religious mumbo-jumbo. Is that not a case of denial of the freedom in faith that is garunteed by your constitution?

And as for civil marriages, as I said already, if straight people can get them, legaly reffer to them as marriages, introduce thier other half as thier husband or wife, why can't we? As far as I see it, the insistance on the use of seperate language for our relationships is an attempt to keep them relegated to second class status.

Yes, they're valid, because they're religious ceremonies. Whether a state will accept them as legal is another thing.

There is why I suggest the term "registered union", that would be the same for everyone. Religiously, philosophically, or whatever. people could do as they please, and the government would be required to treat them all alike with just one term -- not "marriage", so the religious folks will shut up about it, and not "civil union", because of the second-class citizen connotation.

 

[EwanSF]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

But therein lies the problem, I couldn't give a fuck whether it upsets the religious if it's called marriage. As if the sensetivities of those morons should be inflicted on anyone. For me it's very simple, if it's there's seperate language used, it's not the same. If it's not the same, not equal. No compromise.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

But therein lies the problem, I couldn't give a fuck whether it upsets the religious if it's called marriage. As if the sensetivities of those morons should be inflicted on anyone. For me it's very simple, if it's there's seperate language used, it's not the same. If it's not the same, not equal. No compromise.

As far as upsetting them -- I don't mind tweaking the noses of the Religious Right at all. I do mind upsetting our fellow minority, the blacks, and I definitely mind that the word "marriage" has been a bastion of religious discrimination for at least a century. Further, I mind a great deal that something the great majority of Americans consider to be sacred should have any standing whatsoever in the law.

BTW, were your last two sentences a response to anything in particular, or just a general statement?

 

[EwanSF]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

As far as upsetting them -- I don't mind tweaking the noses of the Religious Right at all. I do mind upsetting our fellow minority, the blacks, and I definitely mind that the word "marriage" has been a bastion of religious discrimination for at least a century. Further, I mind a great deal that something the great majority of Americans consider to be sacred should have any standing whatsoever in the law.

BTW, were your last two sentences a response to anything in particular, or just a general statement?

Just general statements man.

You do make some very valid points there, but bare in mind, for the most part, I have gay marriage within the UK in mind when discussing this, where there are some different perameters to deal with in terms of objections from religious sectors of society (ours, thank fuck, being significantly smaller,) but I do try to keep this in mind as a global thing, as gay rights is a global issue.

 

[bankside]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

There is again a bit of confusion being spread around here when it comes to marriage.

For a few centuries now, in most countries, marriage is a government thing. You are married provided only if you follow the government's laws on marriage.

In many places, the government permits churches to fill out the government paperwork for you at the ceremony of your choice. It is the government paperwork based on the democratic law that makes you married, not the fact that the church is willing to do it or not.

Likewise, the government does not demand that your church fill out the paperwork if they don't want to. This is why you don't see a lot of hindus going to the catholic church for a wedding. Or gay people going to Fred Phelps Baptist Church for a gay-bashing wedding.

If you choose to have your religion fill out the paperwork, that is up to you and your church. You can easily skip this and just have the paperwork taken care of at a government office.

The common factor is that it's the marriage law that matters, not what any particular church thinks or wants to do. The marriage law, and the word marrige, and marriage itself, belongs to all of us, regardless of what any religion thinks. Your church's viewpoint doesn't matter, and must never be allowed to muscle into our private lives - unless you want them to be the ones to fill out your own personal paperwork. What somebody else's church thinks of it matters even less.

 

[jdoe4822]

Re: How Do Gay Republicans Feel About Gay Rights..

You're a bit sensetive if you think that was an insult. Trust me, I can do much better if ye like And as for civil marriages, as I said already, if straight people can get them, legaly reffer to them as marriages, introduce thier other half as thier husband or wife, why can't we? As far as I see it, the insistance on the use of seperate language for our relationships is an attempt to keep them relegated to second class status.

you can call your partner in conversation whatever you want.* your religious institution can call him what they want.* I don't see why the governments "blessing" in calling it a "marriage" versus a "civil union" matters.*