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How old do you believe the Earth is?

ChickenGuy

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Well, hello there - this is my first post in the Religion section

I will say right off the bat that I'm an atheist :-< and that I believe firmly in science and nothing else

I've always found it interesting that amongst those that are religious, some will accept a certain degree of science without it affecting or impinging on their beliefs.

Indeed, my own father has religious beliefs but doesn't go to church, and yet he's extremely interested in the Earth and the science of it.

Since I was young I've always had an interest in astronomy, prehistoric life, geology and have a fairly good grasp of these subjects.

I think strongly that an understanding of these subjects is very important to understanding the Earth around us and how it came to be.

I certainly do NOT think that discovering about or finding an interest in these subjects should conflict or challenge a person's religious beliefs UNLESS they take a 'literal' interpretation of biblical texts.

So, to my question:

How old do you believe the Earth is?

I believe it to be 4,500,000,000 years (4.5 billion years) old.

How about everyone else?
 
I will say right off the bat that I'm an atheist :-< and that I believe firmly in science and nothing else
Not to parse this too the point of unnessary pedantry but I feel I should quote R.A.W.

Don't believe anything. Regard things on a scale of probabilities. The things that seem most absurd, put under 'Low Probability', and the things that seem most plausible, you put under 'High Probability'. Never believe anything. Once you believe anything, you stop thinking about it. The more things you believe, the less mental activity. If you believe something, and have an opinion on every subject, then your brain activity stops entirely, which is clinically considered a sign of death, nowadays in medical practice. So put things on a scale or probability, and never believe or disbelieve anything entirely.

-Robert A. Wilson
 
Nice quote, poolerboy.

Yes, the Earth is 4.5 Billion YO in American numbers.

Thomas Thompson is an American-Danish scholar who has established a well-known critique of the Bible over the last 40 years. His position is that there is little or nothing in the Old Testament that is historical in a direct way. But that does not mean it is unimportant. "The Mythic Past" is a good book by him that lays a foundation for placing the OT in context.

If you find that it is important to explain the mysteries of the universe to a herd of sheep, how does one do so?
Ridiculous? Well, what if you really must explain something to the sheep? What do you do??

The Greeks -- or at least some of their theological speculators-- thought that the Cosmos was begotten by Eros, Love.
When you don't have much in the way of television or even books, there is little to distract one from thinking very carefully about such things.
How does one explain certain deductions that one observes?
Well, it's a long story...
 
It would be nice to have the evidence for the claim linked here so that any dissenters can have access to it. :)
 
I will not say I believe the earth is of any age because belief is knowing something without evidence. There is substantial evidence that points to the age of the earth. The earth has been dated by several independent dating methods each showing it to be about 4.5 billion years old. We can not KNOW this is how old the earth is, this is simply the conclusion that can be drawn from all present evidence.

Here is one website that addresses the age of the earth explicitly for the purpose of debunking young-earth-creationist (biblical literalists) nonsense claims, which seems fitting with the topic of this post:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
 
I think the accepted scientific number is 4.5 billion years. So not actually having been there I'll accept that as well. I'm Catholic and I believe in God but that doesn't mean I'm an idiot and believe all the nonsense from the creationist nuts either. God is a bit more sophisticated and dare I say "creative" than to just twitch his nose and "poof" there's the universe.

Quote Albert Einstein: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
 
I think the accepted scientific number is 4.5 billion years. So not actually having been there I'll accept that as well. I'm Catholic and I believe in God but that doesn't mean I'm an idiot and believe all the nonsense from the creationist nuts either. God is a bit more sophisticated and dare I say "creative" than to just twitch his nose and "poof" there's the universe.

Quote Albert Einstein: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

One thing you have to give Catholics credit for. They are wrong on alot of scientific issues and do not have a good track record on science. However atleast they are not creationists.
 
Don't believe anything. Regard things on a scale of probabilities. The things that seem most absurd, put under 'Low Probability', and the things that seem most plausible, you put under 'High Probability'. Never believe anything. Once you believe anything, you stop thinking about it. The more things you believe, the less mental activity. If you believe something, and have an opinion on every subject, then your brain activity stops entirely, which is clinically considered a sign of death, nowadays in medical practice. So put things on a scale or probability, and never believe or disbelieve anything entirely.

-Robert A. Wilson

Excellent quote -- I used that once for a high school biology class, where kids were stating things as facts that were hypothesis or conjecture.


Anyway, let's see...

There are rocks dated to about 4 billion, and some maybe a bit more, so the planet has to be somewhere more than that. Given the processes that we think formed it (not the same now that I learned in high school!) it can't be, in astronomical terms, much older than that -- more than ten percent older, but less than twenty.

That yields somewhere between 4.4 billion and 4.8 billion.


WRT the Creationist stuff...
Rubbish!

Just mineralogy and crystallography say it has to be at a bare minimum, two hundred and fifty million years. Sea floor magetometry referenced with sedimentology give a minimum figure of two hundred million years as well. Applying all that to former sea floor now up on land yields a figure upwards of 3.75 billion.

Without radiometrics, I don't recall that there's any way to go beyond those. But any (young-earth) Creationist, given that data, has only two choices: either those give an indication of the minimum age, or God is a Deceiver.



The problem with the young-earthers is that they don't grasp the nature of the Old Testament, even when it's intended as history. Many incidents, indeed most of those in Genesis, are meant as history, but they are connected by a number of literary devices which we know, by comparison with similar literature from the ancient Near East, to be unrelated to the passage of time -- for example, even genealogies are not strictly sequential; it was a common practice to skip over any losers, or even list only outstanding ancestors, with the result that what is set down as three generations may in fact indicate three centuries.

So, when you get down to it, nothing in the Old Testament is "history" as we think of it in terms of literature, until the generation before King David.

But something they really don't grasp is the nature of the letter "wau" or "vav", which as a word comes over to us in translation as "and". Here's the important aspect: unless the literary structure so indicates, it does not indicate immediacy. Now, that shouldn't be unfamiliar; in English we may be listing a series of excellent things on a vacation, connecting them with "and" yet knowing that they're separated by hours or days. So consider Genesis 1: it's a royal chronicle, and in a royal chronicle, neither sequentiality nor immediacy are significant; the significance is in the theme concerning the feats of a monarch. Thus we cannot expect the word "wau/vav" to indicate immediate following of one event on another.

So consider: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and chaotic, and darkness covered the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God hovered/meditated over the face of the waters."

The first line is likely the title of the chronicle; we might write it as, "How God Created the Heavens and Earth, in the Beginning". The second line we modern Westerners tend to take as a static, snapshot statement, but in the time and culture, is was a statement of condition. An example of that for us would the the statement "The water's boiling": yes, it indicates that at the instant we looked, the water was boiling, but it does not indicate how long it had been boiling, or how long it would continue to boil -- in other words, in terms of time, it indicates an indefinite period. So what does Genesis relate to us here? That the earth was shapeless and chaotic for a period of time. How long a period? The writer isn't interested in that, because it has no bearing on the theme. What we do know is that sometime later -- after another "wau/vav" -- we find that the earth now has a great expanse of waters, and the Spirit of God is checking it out.

Right there is room for years -- millions, or billions, because time is of no concern in this sort of narrative; what is off concern is the theme, which is that the monarch (God) laid the foundation for his realm (the heavens and the earth).

Now a hard-core creationist might just accept this as possible, but then insist that the ensuing six days are literal... but I won't go into that; suffice it to say that Genesis 1 does not require a young earth.
 
One thing you have to give Catholics credit for. They are wrong on alot of scientific issues and do not have a good track record on science. However atleast they are not creationists.

That's because in the end they have many scholars, who make themselves heard -- so they read Genesis 1 for what it is, not for what it would seem to be to some country bumpkin in the seventeenth century.
 
One thing you have to give Catholics credit for. They are wrong on alot of scientific issues and do not have a good track record on science. However atleast they are not creationists.

Actually the Catholic church has a pretty good record on scientific issues but not very many people know about it. The Vatican science academy for a little over 400 years has conducted research and advised on the church on scientific issues. The Vatican Observatory conducts leading edge astronomical research.

Inside the Academy of Sciences
Though it is virtually unknown among laypeople, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences is an independent and remarkably influential body within the Holy See. Over the years its membership roster has read like a who’s who of 20th-century scientists (including Max Planck, Niels Bohr, and Erwin Schrödinger, to name a few), and it currently boasts more than 80 international academicians, many of them Nobel laureates and not all of them Catholic—including the playfully irreligious physicist Stephen Hawking.
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/se...-the-pope/?searchterm=vatican science academy

Link to the Vatican Observatory: http://vaticanobservatory.org/
 
Actually the Catholic church has a pretty good record on scientific issues but not very many people know about it. The Vatican science academy for a little over 400 years has conducted research and advised on the church on scientific issues. The Vatican Observatory conducts leading edge astronomical research.

http://discovermagazine.com/2008/se...-the-pope/?searchterm=vatican science academy

Link to the Vatican Observatory: http://vaticanobservatory.org/

Wow thinks for the info, I suppose the Catholic Church is better on science then we are lead to believe. My hat goes off to the Catholics again.
 
Wow thinks for the info, I suppose the Catholic Church is better on science then we are lead to believe. My hat goes off to the Catholics again.

Interestingly, if you examine the Galileo affair closely, it wasn't a case of theology versus religion: it was science vs. science, with the church hierarchy backing the theory they thought fit the Bible best.

It's kind of like today: the 'evangelicals' back what they think fits the Bible best -- except that they had to concoct their own 'theory' to have one to back (Rome already had the Ptolemaic system).
 
Interestingly, if you examine the Galileo affair closely, it wasn't a case of theology versus religion: it was science vs. science, with the church hierarchy backing the theory they thought fit the Bible best.
o_O Come again?
 
o_O Come again?

It was the Ptolemaic system of explaining the solar system v. the Copernicus/Galileo system.

The Ptolemaic system was not theology; it was Greek science, a mathematical attempt to describe what was observed in the heavens.

That fiasco was one of the things that (eventually) taught Rome to not endorse scientific theories or systems as being "what the Bible says". Too bad they didn't write that down for today's 'evangelicals'
to learn.
 
It was the Ptolemaic system of explaining the solar system v. the Copernicus/Galileo system.

The Ptolemaic system was not theology; it was Greek science, a mathematical attempt to describe what was observed in the heavens.

It wasn't a religious doctrine, but it was a religious institution (the church) that opposed science.

In the middle ages knowledge was controlled by the church and the prevailing wisdom was usually that knowledge was best gained through more extensive investigation of important ancient texts (both stuff like the Greek's ancient writings, and the Bible etc), rather than observation and experimentation.
 
It wasn't a religious doctrine, but it was a religious institution (the church) that opposed science.

In the middle ages knowledge was controlled by the church and the prevailing wisdom was usually that knowledge was best gained through more extensive investigation of important ancient texts (both stuff like the Greek's ancient writings, and the Bible etc), rather than observation and experimentation.

Well, yes -- and the church had made the mistake of hitching its horse to a particular scientific theory.

The authoritarian approach to scholarship back then has often been called Aristotelianism. What's ironic is that Aristotle insisted on observation, and trying new ideas when new observations made them necessary -- he refused to rely on authority.
Ptolemy was the same way; he built his model to cover what was seen in the heavens -- he just had a basic assumption that was quite, quite wrong -- but at least he was reaching for new explanations that better fit observation. Rome, on the other hand, wasn't interested in observations or explanations, just in having an official set of knowledge..
 
Allow me to follow up my original thread with an opinion on the universe......

The age of the universe is estimated to be around 13/14 billion years, when EVERYTHING including time and space began with the Big Bang. after which the universe has been continually and increasingly expanding.

As to what caused the Big Bang, I have no trouble admitting that I HAVEN'T THE SLIGHTEST CLUE.

There are things that are beyond mankind's current understanding. I'm sure that in 50 years / 100 years scientists will have a much clearer frame of reference.

Just like we know today more than Victorian scientists did, who knew more than Renaissance scientists did.

The current scientific opinion on this issue involves terms like quantum theory, string theory, alternate universes, M-theory, branes, wormholes, dark matter, dark energy etc.

I'm afraid that all these terms rather go over my head.

Anyone would need to have a degree in advanced particle physics / mathematics to understand all this, and I am no exception.

But I trust that as the decades pass, this issue will steadily become clearer.
 
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