How should I move on?

[hanshansen]

In an earlier thread, I described a situation where I met a guy through a dating site without really being ready for it either psychologically or in terms of my lifestyle. (This was the first time I'd done this, hence the naive title of the thread.)

To condense that thread into a short paragraph, I felt ambivalent about him but aspects of him were really nice, we did a lot of things together, we talked about personal things, I got to know two of his friends, and after a couple of weeks I somehow realised I was attracted to him and developed a crush on him. I told him about this and he said that he liked me a lot and saw potential for things to go further, but he was not in love with me at this stage and thought it was not the right time for me to enter a relationship with him, or anyone else, because I was not properly grounded in myself. Shortly after that there was a misunderstanding, I thought he had cut me out of his life, and my thread was triggered by my anxiety about that.

I was wrong, he took a few days to get over the misunderstanding and he hasn't cut me off. We've met to have lunch and go shopping three times since then.

However, while he hasn't cut me out of his life, I recognise that in some sense I am now on the periphery of his life, or at least not as far near the centre as I would like. And I'm finding it hard to deal with that.

In a short time, this guy has had a really big influence on my life. He has changed the way I see how I relate to others and where I am in life. Unintentionally he furthered my coming out process. He has changed the way I dress and carry myself. I did a whole lot of activities for the first time with him. I became interested in what was going on in his life, I wanted to get to know his friends.

I know he does not need me in the same way. He's at a stage where he knows his own interests and preferences and doesn't really want to expand them, at least not in my direction. When we talked the last two times, he was totally absorbed in his own affairs. He's become very lukewarm about me joining him and his friends on various activities.

I don't want to cut him off, in some ways he's a very nice guy and I care about him, but given all this, I know I need to free myself emotionally from him. I put myself in a needy, dependent position, I've been feeling short-changed and it's not been good for my self esteem. It must have made him uncomfortable, as well.

I arranged the last time we met, but I've since decided to no longer do that for the time being. If he wants to spend time with me, he can let me know.

But it's hard. I wake up at 4 in the morning and think about him. I still feel the urge to ask him if he wants to have a drink in the weekend. I've had very vivid dreams where he called me on my cell and we had one of our (rare) heart to heart talks. When I'm walking home from work in the afternoons I wonder if I'll run into him and feel very melancholy. It doesn't help that he's an msn and facebook friend and so I can see when he's online and what he's doing (he has these status updates saying how much he is looking forward to activity X and of course I feel jealous).

How long can I expect this process to take? It's not as if I'm sitting at home moping. I've been thinking about what I can do to improve myself, I'm happier at work than last year, I'm still socializing with my friends, I'm reading and pursuing other interests. One thing I'm not willing to do for the time being (he's convinced me that it wouldn't be a good idea at this stage) is to pursue a relationship with anyone. I've got too many unresolved issues, I know that I am needy, and I don't want to do it just to fill the emptiness that I'm currently feeling.

 

[G-Lexington]

One thing to keep in mind is that you're probably mooning over an idealized version of this guy. You've read threads in this forum about guys who'd be perfect "if only they weren't straight". This guy would be great for you if he wanted you the same way, but it's very clear he doesn't. And so, like the posters saying "if only" about their perfect straight friends, you're probably playing the "if only" game with him. And with about as much chance as success.

If having him as a friend on msn and facebook is too tempting, feel free to remove him. You no doubt have five hundred other ways to contact him, he can still contact you through those channels even if he's not your friend, he most likely won't feel "snubbed", and it'll remove the temptation to start thinking about him.

In general, it looks like you're taking the proper steps - moving forward, staying active, staying social. But if I remember correctly, this guy was your only "window" into...well, for lack of better term, the "gay world". It probably excited you, and now that window is closed. Perhaps you should look for another. Gay groups in your area? Gay clubs to visit? Grab a local gay magazine and read through the various clubs and interests - see if anything sounds like something you'd like to try. Getting yourself another connection to other gay people might help you get over this guy quicker.

Good luck!

Lex

 

[hanshansen]

Yeah. This guy would be great if we had more similar interests. If he was more interested in my interests. If our priorities were more aligned.

I agree with your basic idea. This guy was my window into a whole lot of things - a version of the gay world that I was at least curious about given my age, lifestyle and values (I'd seen others, not necessarily bad, but not for me), activities like bowling, dancing, kayaking, different bars. In some important ways he took me out of my shell. So I need to keep that window open in other ways, otherwise it's going to continue to feel like there's this hole. I'm going bowling tonight, to a birthday party with dancing on Saturday, and for a month or so I've been running with this gay running group in the weekends. There's at least one guy there my age who I click with and who seems at least as well-adjusted as my friend, and a friend of my friend also runs in that group.

So hopefully that will help.

 

[hanshansen]

Last night, when I went bowling with my work friends, he turned out to be there too, with work friends of his (it was his last day at his current job). We said hello and that was it. But it was still a positive experience: bowling is what I did (for the first time) with him and some friends of his on our first 'date' two months ago, and I could see yesterday how much my self-assurance has grown since then, not just regarding the bowling, but in general. It was a really nice night out. (Of course I was awake again at 4 a.m., but on the whole life looks like it's once again on the up.)

 

[rareboy]

^ I agree with the above. Just writing out your feelings will have already helped you move on.

 

[TygreBryte]

I just continue to be impressed with both how much self-awareness you seem to have regarding all your own various issues, as well as his issues too, and how much growth you seemed to do in a short period of time under this guy's influence.

I think the one thing I question as an "absolute" is your decision, influenced by his observations on you, to not follow any other leads into relationships because you've got more stuff to "sort out." Honestly, that may very well be an EXCELLENT plan! Do you think that the things you're doing (getting out with people, with new people, with new activities like the bowling and the gay running group) will help you settle those issues, or do you think that it will take more?

One thing that I eventually decided, based on my own experiences and watching others, is that if you're going to get into a "relationship" with someone, then it's really helpful if you're emotionally ready, when you start, to face the possibility of that relationship ending at some point. As painful as this process with this guy sounds like it's been, it seems to me that you're handling it in a way that will help you be prepared, within yourself, the *next* time you find someone who lights your fire!

...I know from experience how... discombobulating it can be to find yourself "accidentally in love." "Oops, I've fallen and I can't get up!" ...but you can, and the sooner you do, the better.

I suspect that you two may have, in the future, friendship, and possibly significant friendship. For now, though, it might be useful to you to take even a little bit more distance than you already have, as GLex suggested above. In the past, in situations that have some similarities to yours, it's been helpful to me to perform some little act or ritual that is symbolic of my intention to free myself of any expectation that things will change in the way I "want" them to.

Thanks for the update; please continue to let us know what's up!

~t.

 

[hanshansen]

Thanks, tygrbryte, I've split my response into two parts.

I think the one thing I question as an "absolute" is your decision, influenced by his observations on you, to not follow any other leads into relationships because you've got more stuff to "sort out." Honestly, that may very well be an EXCELLENT plan! Do you think that the things you're doing (getting out with people, with new people, with new activities like the bowling and the gay running group) will help you settle those issues, or do you think that it will take more?

To be blunt, my problem is that while I'm nearly 29, and intellectually reasonably well developed, in important ways I really only started to leave (or maybe even enter) my adolescence in mid-late 2006. One of the things my friend said to me is that he saw a lot of himself in me - himself 10 years ago (he is my age). I've been doing things in the last year such as emancipating myself from my parents and falling under the influence of different peer groups, that most people do in their teens and early 20s. Because I wasted those years, I have to do it now, preferably some time before my early 30s.

Based on my friend's feedback and my own thinking, the key issues revolve around:
- being comfortable with and by myself
- understanding what I want and need from other people (and understanding what other people want and need)
- being able to communicate those things.

I think there's a couple of specific things I can do to reduce my (physical) insecurity and dependency, such as continuing to develop a dress sense that works for me, learning to drive (I've never needed to because I live centrally and always had people to drive me outside of town), continuing to try out physical challenges, and just becoming more familiar with my physical strengths and weaknesses. For example, while I can now survive on a dance floor, I'm still not very good and don't really enjoy dancing. Last night, when I came home after the party, I still had the music in my head and I tried out a few moves in front of the mirror, and I could see which ones worked and which didn't. I can do more of that. (In the past I wouldn't have done that - I would hate seeing myself and just hope for the best.)

The other two issues should improve by continuing to get to know and interact with a variety of people, as long as I take the time to reflect and acknowledge that I don't really want to be with person X or do activity X (or for the wrong reasons) and act accordingly. As far as the reflection goes, my instinct to date has been to share my thoughts with others (as I'm doing here) or to ask them for advice, but I'm gradually coming to the understanding that it's largely between me and myself. I guess that's another aspect of becoming an adult.

What I'm hoping is that as I make progress on those fronts, emotionally mature people around my age (these are the people I'm attracted to) will start to feel more comfortable around me and less need to mentor/mother/soft-pedal. And things might start to happen without me needing to force them.

And, of course, I guess the 'coming out' process needs to go further, so that both guys and girls can feel comfortable with me in a relationship (i.e. there is no sense of there being big inaccessable areas in the map of hanshansen or his associates). This is something I haven't worked through. Some of my friends know that I have a gay friend who has given me fashion advice. A lot of the books and movies I have read and seen are on facebook - some have a gay theme. By this stage I have no problems doing social things in public with gay people (though I still dislike it if they behave in an exaggeratedly campy way, and don't relish the idea of, say, my flatmates or colleagues walking in on the brunch I have with the gay running group in the weekends). So in a sense I'm trying to push things. But so far everyone seems to continue to think that I'm metro but straight (or to behave that way), and I'm still reluctant to explicitly tell them otherwise (although I have been able to in isolated cases when the context demanded it).

 

[hanshansen]

One thing that I eventually decided, based on my own experiences and watching others, is that if you're going to get into a "relationship" with someone, then it's really helpful if you're emotionally ready, when you start, to face the possibility of that relationship ending at some point.

I guess the question I haven't fully resolved is: how do you do this without extinguishing the fire (so to speak) in advance?

Is it a matter of knowing: OK, if this doesn't work, it will be painful, but I'll have the resources (time, mental) to deal with that? I guess I'm not sure I'm there yet. The last month or so has been very stressful.

I suspect that you two may have, in the future, friendship, and possibly significant friendship. For now, though, it might be useful to you to take even a little bit more distance than you already have, as GLex suggested above. In the past, in situations that have some similarities to yours, it's been helpful to me to perform some little act or ritual that is symbolic of my intention to free myself of any expectation that things will change in the way I "want" them to.

At this stage I don't feel I can do this. For example, I have a birthday coming up and if (only if) I decide to have a large party, I will put him on the invite list. I also don't want to take him off facebook. I'd need to explain why. Especially given that he was my first facebook friend (facebook being another thing he introduced me to).

 

[KaraBulut]

hanshansen:

In reading through this thread, it sounds like you and your friend are in very different places in your lives.

Your friend is very far into the coming out process. You are just beginning.

You both sound like great guys. You are working very hard on self-improvement. Your friend has been straightforward and honest with you in saying that he's does feel like this is good time for either of you to be involved.

In many of the threads on this forum, there's an feeling that the poster is in such a hurry- "I came out, now how do I find a boyfriend?". There's no need to rush! While coming out is easier when you have a good support system, it's also a lot easier when you can focus upon yourself.

Relationships are work. Relationships consume time and energy. At this point, that time and energy is needed on addressing your issues and making yourself a better person.

In your particular situation, you need to be very cognizant of your past behavior. It sounds like you have been very passive in your life and you have been dominated and influenced by your parents well into your 20s. You have to be careful that you are not substituting one "parent" for another "parent". I think your friend senses that you are using him as a parent substitute and he's been honest with you that he is not ready for that.

One thing that I think would help you tremendously is go get into a support group or group therapy. You have a lot of good insight into your issues but I think you would benefit from the sounding board and honest feedback from a support group of guys who are in different points in their coming out process. After all, this is what your friend has been for you, isn't it?

 

[hanshansen]

Thanks, KaraBulut, you've captured the essence of the situation (unfortunately ).

One comment/question:

hanshansen:
One thing that I think would help you tremendously is go get into a support group or group therapy. You have a lot of good insight into your issues but I think you would benefit from the sounding board and honest feedback from a support group of guys who are in different points in their coming out process. After all, this is what your friend has been for you, isn't it?

One reason I feel very lucky to have gotten to know this guy is that he is very outspoken and that he spent a lot of time giving me advice on how I can do things differently in my life (in relating to others, working through my own issues, dealing with others' feedback, presenting myself to the world, and so on). Most people I know (including me) are very reluctant to criticise, they don't want to offend. So you never learn, unless you're very good at reading between the lines, and very self-critical. Maybe this is a cultural thing (we are both foreigners in the country we are living in).

So yes, my friend did become a parent, and now I miss that, as well.

I've been going to this support group for guys new to the coming out process for about 8 months. To be honest, it can't compare. You meet bi-weekly, someone in the group talks about himself, and then everybody else there offers their responses. But it's very weak beer, I guess no-one wants to deflate your self-esteem. Also, let's be honest: in some ways the guys there are just as clueless as I am, i.e. they have also just started going through this process late in life.

The person who runs the group, a trained counselor, has some odd perspectives, but he is a great guy, he is very smart, very grounded, we get on very well (he seems more attuned to me intellectually than my friend is), his coming-out process goes back at least 25 years. I spent time with him and some friends of his over the Christmas period and talked to him about some of the things that were going on. Maybe I should ask him if I can get counselling sessions from him (I think the group meets again this week).

Another option is to see a shrink. Who does that here? My friend sees a shrink, and to be honest, when I first heard this, I thought this was a little ridiculous (it fitted into my impression of 'steriotypically gay'). I'm no longer so sure.

 

[TygreBryte]

Well, I think the three issues you and your friend identified are important, including "comfortable being by self," understanding what you and others want and need, and being able to communicate those things. Those are really good things to have identified.

In terms of taking more distance from him -- I understand not de-facebooking him, and inviting him to a large party. Actually, it sounds like you understand that you need to keep the distance at this point in time. I would probably put your work on this issue under the category "being comfortable with and by yourself."

I think if you get that one more under control, then the possibility of the sorrow that can come about if a relationship doesn't work out becomes more do-able.

What's the difference for you for a counselor vs. a "shrink"? I think good counseling/psychotherapy can be very useful -- I've gotten benefit from it myself and seen that be true for others as well, if you find someone good to work with. There is something about having a relationship with someone who's task, as far as your concerned, is helping you pay attention to troublesome areas in your life in ways that are impossible for many of us to do by ourselves that I think can't be beat. ...in terms of the "coming-out" group counselor: if you're beginning to be social with him outside of a professional setting, I'd be a little leery about getting into a "counseling" relationship with him. From my point of view, part of the helpfulness of the "counseling" relationship is that it's that, and ONLY that.

keep us posted?

 

[KaraBulut]

hanshansen:

One of the reasons that I recommended group therapy to you is that a good group will provide you with frank and honest feedback. Not all groups are created equal and often groups become "support groups" instead of "therapeutic groups".

A therapeutic group can be painful- but in a good way. The point of the exercise is to provide an objective view from an outside source. This does not substitute for the development of insight.

Where you want to be is in a place where you have insight into yourself, into other people but most important of all, you should have insight into how you fit into situations and into the interactions you have with other people.

What concerns me is what you've acknowledged is a surrogate parent role: he spent a lot of time giving me advice on how I can do things differently in my life. Keep in mind that the goal of therapy is independence, not dependence.

Underlying a lot of this is a lack of self-confidence, I'm guessing? And dependence on others is lot easier than taking that risk required in making your own mistakes, isn't it?

 

[hanshansen]

In terms of taking more distance from him -- I understand not de-facebooking him, and inviting him to a large party. Actually, it sounds like you understand that you need to keep the distance at this point in time. I would probably put your work on this issue under the category "being comfortable with and by yourself."

Yes, I really need to do that. This morning I had another incredibly vivid dream where he rang me up - of course I felt like crap when I woke up and realised that it was just a dream. So I'm clearly not over this. But I do want to invite him and these two friends of his to my birthday party.

What's the difference for you for a counselor vs. a "shrink"?

I have a prejudice against shrinks and not against cousellors .

After some thought I agree with you about the benefits of talking to a disinterested 'outsider' (who isn't listening to be nice) about your problems. I might ask the guy from the support group if he can recommend anyone else.

 

[hanshansen]

hanshansen:

One of the reasons that I recommended group therapy to you is that a good group will provide you with frank and honest feedback. Not all groups are created equal and often groups become "support groups" instead of "therapeutic groups".

Not sure I can find the kind of group you describe – the city I live in isn’t that large. A counsellor might be the best I can do. The feedback I got from my friend was frank, and thoughtful, but of course it didn’t come from an outside source.

Where you want to be is in a place where you have insight into yourself, into other people but most important of all, you should have insight into how you fit into situations and into the interactions you have with other people.

Yes. Is there anything else I can do to help me with this? I went to this outdoor management training camp earlier in the year (though of course it dealt with professional rather than personal relationships) - it threw me into these high-stress situations with a group of people who were very different from me and we were able to do a lot of reflection and analysis of how we responded and interacted. I got a lot out of that.

To a large extent what I learned through my interaction with this guy and from his feedback was an extension of that, I could see recurring themes.

What concerns me is what you've acknowledged is a surrogate parent role: he spent a lot of time giving me advice on how I can do things differently in my life. Keep in mind that the goal of therapy is independence, not dependence.

The paradox is that my friend understood this – a lot of the feedback he gave me was on my psychological dependence on validation/approval/sanction from other people (this wasn’t just in relation to him, but other stuff that we’d talked about). And his advice was quite open-ended: for example in relation to dressing well I asked what I could read etc., and he said that while there were basic principles I would have to discover a lot for myself through (expensive) trial and error. Of course it’s taking me time to get used to this idea.

Underlying a lot of this is a lack of self-confidence, I'm guessing? And dependence on others is lot easier than taking that risk required in making your own mistakes, isn't it?

Yes, of course

 

[HollisterDude08]

Went through the same thing about a month ago. Still kind of going through it... I just kept hanging on and thinking about him and it just made it worse and worse until the point where I couldn't take it anymore. But you just have to learn from it. What helped me was taking time apart from him. We quit hanging out and talking on the phone the only communication we had was via email. Helped alot and we did this for about three weeks and finally started talking again and became friends because I know now i'm not ready for a relationship or atleast ready for what he is looking for. Just some advice on what helped me... but I'm no relationship expert haha.

 

[hanshansen]

We are in contact again - we met over coffee on Saturday morning (his suggestion) and he invited me to go swimming today, but I couldn't make it (I'm at my parents'). And he and his two friends are in all likelihood going to show up at my birthday drinks.

I think things are going to be OK. On Friday night (this was before we arranged to have coffee) I didn't wake up thinking about him. And when we interact now there isn't this pressure there was initially. The pangs of jealousy when he does things without me have really abated. He's also in a much better space than he was two months ago and I don't worry about him.

There have been a few threads here recently on the subject of Being Alone. What I've realised over the past week (in the course of catching up with a few people after the New Year) is that it's really only been in the last couple of months that I've gotten to know anyone (apart from old family friends, a Skype friend etc.) at a level that I could properly call them even potential friends - people I feel good with one on one - rather than just fixtures in my social circle. I don't know exactly what's done this. I guess I must have signalled a greater openness. Various people have told me recently that they used to think I was cold and arrogant, but that I've been mellowing. And I guess the fact that I now dress and live like a yuppie rather than a preppy nerd has also sent a signal to people that there has been a change.

Until 6 months to a year ago, I didn't really socialise at all, and after that my social life went into overdrive, but it was all very new and precarious. There was always this fear that people weren't actually interested in me, deep down, and that if I stopped organising stuff they would drift away.

I think that's changed. I know now there's a number of people in my life who like me and trust me and are interested in me at some level. Who have seen some of my weaknesses but still like my company, and know that I enjoy theirs. It's very early days, I don't know what that level is and how it's going to evolve, but it's more than casual acquaintances and enough for me to feel able to loosen the leash, and to allow them to do the same. At this point I'm no longer afraid of being alone.

And that actually feels really good. I can sit back and relax and give myself some time and space. As I'm writing this I'm sitting in my parents' house by the sea looking out over the trees, it's still apart from the birdsong, there's a warm draft coming through the open window. I'm not hung over. For the first time in months I'm getting the time to read and to think. Life could be a lot worse.