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I can't get religious gay people!

I have never had any positive experiences with religious gays before. I have tried mingling with some on-line and in-person and it always turns into a witch hunt/persecution of sorts. Every little aspect of my agnostic/Catholic/secular life is examined.

One guy asked if I went to church regularly, I answered no and he said then you're not really Catholic/religious (really?). He then asked if I prayed daily, I answered no and he said then you don't really believe in God (What??).

I've found that every single time it turns into a sort of "popularity contest" of sorts, which errupts from a one-sided debate on why I'm this and that and why I'm wrong. Anyway I'm over it. I'm already judged by my family and by straights for being gay, I don't need members of my community judging me for the same shit or for being a "worse gay" (in "God's" eyes).

(*8*)

When I run into some like that (who are Christians) I tend to ask at every point where Jesus said that. Since generally He didn't, I tell them, "Well, He's my Lord, so I'll stick with Him".

But as a Christian (Evangelical Orthodox Catholic [Gaiian]), I have gay friends who are pagan, Buddhist, and previously one who was Muslim. We don't bang each other over the head trying to prove who's more right or better or whatever -- in fact we do spend time seeing what parts of our different beliefs fit together.

It's sad, though, that so many, including atheists, have to pounce and prove the other guy wrong. I don't think we have any 'Jesus' Gangers' on here at the moment, thankfully . . . the biggest irritation is atheists who can't pass up a chance to toss insults at people of faith.
 
Carmine, you have talked with some religious gays. And the first things they do is to judge you ? They don't follow Christ's advices very well so...

I'm sorry you had these annoying experiences with these people. I wish to tell you not all religious gays are the same.

I'll be glad to talk with you about any questions you might have, as, as you said yourself, you tried mingling with some.

My view of religion and my faith is based on love, tolerance, understanding, discussion. I feel God inside of me, and for me God is inside all people. Atheists who do good are more welcome in my opinion in Heaven than Christians who don't follow Christ's advices.

That you go to Church regularly or not, that you pray often or not is so insignificant to the real issues, meanings of what is faith, of what it is to believe in God.
 
This is a topic of great interest to me, especially because of recent events.

My gay best friend is absolutely wonderful - he's the life of the party and nobody has anything but kind words for him. The problem is that he recently came out as Christian, and I say "came out" because he had been keeping it a secret from us for well over a year. The reason for this was because he was facing an internal struggle between the side of him that said "I feel inside that what I'm doing and who I'm being is right for me, and that God made me this way" and the side that said "we're all flawed and sinful and sometimes we are tempted by good feelings to do things that are wrong". He thought this because he had been attending (an evangelical) church where the people had been friendly but dissuasive about his sexuality. Now, I don't want to spark a debate about which side my friend should follow, I just wanted to point out that I don't dislike his religion, but I very much dislike the people at his church, who believe in Augustinian theodicy and original sin.
___

I've got a lot of gay religious friends in my life, all of whom have taken a different stance on sexuality and religion.

My ex was a priest for most of his life, but left the church when he had been made terribly guilty because of his sexuality. He has been in therapy for most of this time.

A good friend of mine studied at a theological college to be a priest. At the college he was ostracised because he was gay. He is now an openly gay priest, but as a friend I feel incredibly sorry for him - he has been told that he is allowed to be gay, and to have a relationship, as long as he can prove that it is non-physical. I would be surprised if he ever finds a man who is happy to never kiss him, or be kissed.

A sweetheart of mine is another priest who works in a very high profile. He is openly gay and sees nothing wrong with being in a normal relationship. I'm happy for him.

Another friend hates being gay and has considered suicide. The only thing holding him back is that the Bible condemns suicide.
___

Anyway, the list goes on. The point that I'm trying to make is that I find religion to be hugely influential when it comes to a person's character. Half of the religious people I have experienced are wonderful - every facet of their character is enriched by a fundamental desire to do good. Sadly, the other half are full of (in my opinion) misplaced anger and revulsion. They impose strong beliefs on malleable people, leaving them hurt and confused. I know this is what they were taught to do, but it doesn't justify it.
 
I am Christian (Anglican) and while I am not religious about it (as in I do not religiously go to church, pray etc) I still hold the core values.

When it comes to seeing any "christians" disrespecting others then I just laugh to myself, because they aren't true christians after all.

When it comes to the original question OP, I have zero guilt. I am who I am, and although I follow a science based life I can easily reconcile that with a belief in a christian life.

If it is a sin to be myself then that is fine, I am a human and humans will sin, welcome to nature. Additionally if you follow that Jesus died for your sins, then isn't it rude to try to avoid sinning, then he died for nothing ;)
 
If it is a sin to be myself then that is fine, I am a human and humans will sin, welcome to nature. Additionally if you follow that Jesus died for your sins, then isn't it rude to try to avoid sinning, then he died for nothing ;)

LOL

Paul addressed that question, and the answer is no -- it isn't rude to try to avoid sinning. But it is rude to go on as though getting sin out of your life is what life is about. It's not without point that St. Augustine said, "Love God -- and do as you please", from which a later worthy drew, "Live boldly!", which Martin Luther turned into "Sin boldly; pray more boldly still".

The point they had in common there is similar to yours: there's no way to avoid sin, so just live your life in confidence that God has taken care of that. It's where the Puritans went wrong: you don't fight sin by strict avoidance of many things and strict adherence to others, you fight sin with love.

Love God and live boldly.
 
sun rise ans sun set

amazin is cultures ans their barrul a mix appulls

ans UN delcare dat all right then

go figa

:eek:
 
Maybe I'm not qualified to debate about this (I haven't done much research), but I do have one question that I think I deserve an answer to. Why do you believe in something that has no solid evidence? Merely because of your faith? It is highly unlikely that what you guys claim to "feel" in your heart from "God" is actually a message from him. It is much more logical and rational that you are simply feeling what you want to feel.

For example, if I go into a house that has been claimed to be haunted, and I heard a story about a lady in white gliding down the stairs, what is bound to happen? I will most likely experience something that leads me to believe it was the lady in white, be it hallucination or imagination.

This is the same exact thing as "feeling" as though an entity that logically doesn't exist has communicated with you. You want to feel like someone is there for you. In my opinion, it only shows that you're weak and can't handle life things on your own. It's perfectly fine that some people need religion to be happy in life. However, it's not fine when they use said religions to bring upon hate, murder, and torture to other people.

So, I go back to my question, assuming you're intelligent enough that you can figure all of this out yourself, why do you continue to believe it? Faith is far less strong (logically, not emotionally) than pure evidence. I don't have faith in evolution or the Big Bang. I believe it's true because of the observable evidence that the world's leading scientists have collected throughout the years.
 
I don't believe you're interested in evidence any more than he is. So far his tactics have been to insult, to fail to back up his claims, and to assert that only science can be used to know things (while denying it).

And his argument is a straw man because he invents some cheap materialistic trick to compare with something nowhere near cheap, definitely not materialistic, and hardly a trick. At least, last time I checked, people didn't preach something they knew to be a lie and willingly face death for that lie.

People died (and continue to do so) not just at the hand of, but on behalf of, the North Korean regime. It tells us only that they believe the lie, not that the lie is real. On the topic of materialism, I might have thought you would have more reverence for the material world given your understanding of its source. Six days, metaphorical or not, is a lot of work put into this universe we're bumping around in. Much as one can view a hologram from any angle, I would think if there were a god he'd be perceptible not just from revelation but from any angle, including the "mundane" artefacts of his creative endeavours. That, and you're known for your well established position that, god given or not, we have brains. I don't see trickery. Nor do I see how materialism is cheap.

Do you mean scientific evidence? If so, you're doing the same thing youfiad does: asserting that someone else's faith position is invalid because it doesn't conform to his faith position.

That's the root failure of almost all atheists who zealously attack religion: they're attacking people for having faith, but that's the very thing they're operating on when they insist that science is the only valid measure of things.

Because of that no evidence anyone brings is going to be accepted: you're all already determined not to accept anything that's not scientific. That's a position of faith just as fanatic as that of the young earth Creationists.

I mean any evidence I can ask questions about.

It is a given that I think your position is invalid, as you would say about mine; we hold impressions of existence which are not evidently reconcilable. I'm interested in an approach to the problem that would be viewed as legitimate by believers and non-believers (or, say, you and I) which would thus allow at least one of us to change his mind.

I don't even think your impression of atheism as a position of faith is relevant to that question, any more than a dialogue between an animist and a jew which might lead to either changing his mind.

So my unanswered question remains: what is it about testimony that permits you to conclude it is reliable instead of concluding as I do that it is generally woefully inadequate. I'm not asking for divine DNA or footage of the Burning Bush captured with a FLIR camera or anything. What is it about testimony that is convincing? I don't see it. Thus, the question.

If, incidentally, my question is to be treated as an insult, it tells me something of great interest to string theorists and esoteric brane-theorists and so on; we are now operating in a universe of reverse polarity where plain questions equal insults and vice-versa.

Thus, a question for youfiad:
Go to hell, you trolling bastard. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.*









*that is to say: Would you accept evidence for the reality of the divine if you had the opportunity to ask questions about the quality of the evidence, how exactly something constitutes evidence, how it supports the idea of divinity, and receive reasoned answers?
 
I'm being asked to have respect for a position that maintains it's okay to ambush people with insults about their religion, makes accusations of fallacies without backing them up, demand that religion measure up to science while showing an ignorance of science?

Where there's no respect for people because they don't hold to the faith position that science is the measure of all things, why should those thus disrespected give any respect back?

So when someone says something ignorant or fallacious with respect to religion, I'll continue to respond.

You can continue to respond. But I will be forced to report.
 
True, to be sure, but that isn't the whole story, is it?

Some CAN handle the thought, and even find it easier to accept coldly rationale thought, but CHOOSE to believe BECAUSE they see something in life beyond the empirical. Long has been the friction between those who are mystical or metaphysical, and those who are rational and cynical.

Wait till you see the conflict between those who are rational and those who are cynical! ..|
 
Maybe I'm not qualified to debate about this (I haven't done much research), but I do have one question that I think I deserve an answer to. Why do you believe in something that has no solid evidence? Merely because of your faith? It is highly unlikely that what you guys claim to "feel" in your heart from "God" is actually a message from him. It is much more logical and rational that you are simply feeling what you want to feel.

It's a question I have been wondering for a long time. I think the answer is much more complicated than the question though. Some of it may have to do with social pressures. Some of it has to do with a lack of formal education and critical thinking. Some of it has to do with fear. Some of it has to do with people needing something to believe in that makes them feel better. I've heard plenty of things, and I feel that it's a combination of many.
 
Thus, a question for youfiad:

*that is to say: Would you accept evidence for the reality of the divine if you had the opportunity to ask questions about the quality of the evidence, how exactly something constitutes evidence, how it supports the idea of divinity, and receive reasoned answers?

I would accept evidence of a devine being if they could provide any sort of evidence at all. It's not as thought I am entirely against believing in a devine being. It's just that there is no reason for me to believe in one. If there was evidence, I would accept it. How would ssometing constitute as evidence? That's the big question, but I don't hold the burden of proof as I am not the one making the claim. So I don't need to worry about that as of this point. I will evalutate the evidence as it comes in though.

A lot of people have reading comprehension problems though, so I want to clarify that just because there is no reason to believe that a God exists, doesn't mean that a God doesn't exist. Similarly, just because you can't proove that Casey Anthony killed her daughter, doesn't mean she didn't. The thing that bothers me about religious people is that they pick and choose what the want to believe to fit their lifestyle and the belief system is perpetuated from generation to generation. This wouldn't bother me in the slightest if the majority didn't try to force their belief ( that cannot be accepted as evidence ) in the education system, or the judicial system, etc... Religion has been the cause of hate and marginalization of many groups of people and is the reason why homophobia is so widespread in the world, even in the USA.
 
Maybe I'm not qualified to debate about this (I haven't done much research), but I do have one question that I think I deserve an answer to. Why do you believe in something that has no solid evidence? Merely because of your faith? It is highly unlikely that what you guys claim to "feel" in your heart from "God" is actually a message from him. It is much more logical and rational that you are simply feeling what you want to feel.

From all the science I knew I decided the evidence pointed to the probability of a Creator. So I asked myself what would be expected of one if he/she/it were to communicate with his/her/its creatures. Then I looked around to see what fit.

Since becoming a Christian, I've seen evidence I can't reasonably explain otherwise.

This is the same exact thing as "feeling" as though an entity that logically doesn't exist has communicated with you. You want to feel like someone is there for you. In my opinion, it only shows that you're weak and can't handle life things on your own. It's perfectly fine that some people need religion to be happy in life. However, it's not fine when they use said religions to bring upon hate, murder, and torture to other people.

"Logically"? Logically, no position on God's existence can be preferred above another.

The moments when I've felt God has communicated with me haven't always been something I would qualify as "someone ... there for [me]".

So, I go back to my question, assuming you're intelligent enough that you can figure all of this out yourself, why do you continue to believe it? Faith is far less strong (logically, not emotionally) than pure evidence. I don't have faith in evolution or the Big Bang. I believe it's true because of the observable evidence that the world's leading scientists have collected throughout the years.

There's no such thing as "pure evidence", at least for meaning.

For why I still believe -- see my first answer above; but also because the more I learn, the more sense it makes of the world.
 
..|

Same here.

My partner is religious, while I'm the complete opposite. No problems on our end with differing beliefs and opinions. Sometimes the 'issues' people face with religious individuals have more to do with the personalities of the believers than the 'religion' itself.

Excellent observation. I knew a guy in college who was an abrasive, arrogant jerk. Then he became a Christian, and improved -- he was an abrasive, confident jerk.
 
Despite my imperfects "I do not see my homosexuality as an imperfection", I will ALWAYS believe and pray to Jehovah. I grew up all my life believing in him and I got through some tough times by praying to him. I will never see myself as a witness, but I will always love Jehovah despite my short comings.
 
I must admit that I've not read this entire thread, butt from the few posts I've read, I think that (maybe) I might be able to Contribute 'here'.

I'm the product of a Long line of Clergy, Quaker and Methodist (Preacher's Kid). And, I've always been encouraged to explore the aspects of All "Religions", Eastern and Asian.

I would not describe myself as "Religious", butt I would profess/witness to my being "Spiritual".

I do not hold to the concept of a single "Creator" or "God". However, I do believe that each of us are a part of a "Higher Power", or "Bigger Whole". And, I also subscribe to the concept that WE are the stewards of our Planet through Science! (That being the Discovery of "God's" mysteries through the deductive abilities, and "Free Will" that we've been "Granted".)

And, Yeah!, I'm GAY! Had that not been 'intended', then it wouldn't BE, would it?

It is up to US to determine/decide what it is that WE, as Individuals, wish to Create/Influence as part of the Group! And, each of US are Responsible for what part WE might play as part of "The Whole"!

All of that said ... It's MOST Important that ... Seriously ... no matter what ...

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz :luv: (group)
 
People died (and continue to do so) not just at the hand of, but on behalf of, the North Korean regime. It tells us only that they believe the lie, not that the lie is real. On the topic of materialism, I might have thought you would have more reverence for the material world given your understanding of its source. Six days, metaphorical or not, is a lot of work put into this universe we're bumping around in. Much as one can view a hologram from any angle, I would think if there were a god he'd be perceptible not just from revelation but from any angle, including the "mundane" artefacts of his creative endeavours. That, and you're known for your well established position that, god given or not, we have brains. I don't see trickery. Nor do I see how materialism is cheap.

Did those North Koreans go from cowardly to bold in the space of three days?

I presume that before the Fall and sin, God was evident from anything one might choose to look at.

The trick is in picking something utterly unrelated to a deity to stand in that place.

And I didn't say materialism is cheap. Where did you get that?

I mean any evidence I can ask questions about.

Most would be testimony, which you don't find relevant. But dome would be from since becoming a Christian, things for which I have no other explanation.

I don't even think your impression of atheism as a position of faith is relevant to that question, any more than a dialogue between an animist and a jew which might lead to either changing his mind.

:confused: Where did I say atheism was a position of faith? I'll take this chance, though, to say that for some it is, for some it isn't.

So my unanswered question remains: what is it about testimony that permits you to conclude it is reliable instead of concluding as I do that it is generally woefully inadequate. I'm not asking for divine DNA or footage of the Burning Bush captured with a FLIR camera or anything. What is it about testimony that is convincing? I don't see it. Thus, the question.

What's convincing is the unbroken chain of testimony to the same message, a message with incredible depth yet beautiful simplicity, despite forces from within and without over the ages.

If, incidentally, my question is to be treated as an insult, it tells me something of great interest to string theorists and esoteric brane-theorists and so on; we are now operating in a universe of reverse polarity where plain questions equal insults and vice-versa.

You lost me here.
 
How do you deal with the guilt? How could you accept yourself like that? How do you trust someone who made you to be born with "that sin"? Someone whom even no one have seen or know whether he does exist or not. I can't imagine how anyone would live with that for a long term! Yeah I know Jesus didn't say anything about sex orientation, but Paul did, and Jesus himself said it in the old testament when he was Father! And muslims! seriously!...,like, SERIOUSLY!



I'm not judging any of you and I respect your choices and support your right to take them. but I really want to understand.

Maybe I see things differently, but spirituality and religion don't induce guilt. People do. I don't feel slightly guilty about me or my life. I'll stand before God come judgement day alongside a "christian" and take my chances.
 
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