I get along with men who like men, but not "gay men"

[wenchine-mahtapasikan]

Kraken, love youuuuu. How's college?

Anyways, you are a freaking genius, so this is not probably news for you, but just in case:

Totally feel you on most of that, however, there is something deeper than that that may be more important. While, overall, I identify as more masculine than feminine, there is still a large traditionally feminine part of me. Somehow, though, I still cannot relate with many of the type of the people you are talking about.

That is probably because gays like that are so stuck on that over-performed sense of non-cisgender. For whatever reasons: attention, defiance, conformity, guys tend to over-perform that sense of gender to the extent of alienating people who don't identify/relate with it. The deeper problem here seems to be self-limiting and closed mindedness, just like I don't have guy friends who are totally unwilling to embrace any femininity.

I don't think you need the TOTAL package to find yourself a good gay friend in real life, I think you just need someone who is interested enough in you and not too interested in themselves to embrace your interests. It means much more to me to have somebody learn about me than babble with me about what we both already know, though the latter can be more titillating at times.

However, in this day and age, I feel there are indicators of people like this, sometimes linked to gender. For instance, the guy yapping at the table behind you about how much of a diva he is to his mindless female friends may have too much of a good thing going to remove themselves from the niche created by their femininity. I also find that people who spend a LOT of time, or exclusively spend their time, advocating their own causes, racial, gendered what have you, may be looking too hard for themselves to give a good look at others. Lots of gays can have a hard time finding themselves (over-performing femininity and alienating naysayers in the process), but some seem to come around eventually. I know a guy who was reaaaaaally awful about that his Freshmen year. He was discovering his blackness and his gayness at the same time. He had three "personality" settings: "gay", "black", and my favorite: "gay and black".

I find my closest gay friends have been gay women. Women are simultaneously lucky and fucked in that they exist on the margins of gender identity. Their gendered role in society has been seen as unimportant and, as such, not as much pressure has been put on women to maintain it outside of sexual contexts. When queer women break from their gender mold, not as many feel a need to make a big 180 degrees production of it. Many are kind of butch, but readily befriend people who aren't, and don't rub that shit in your face.

Too bad though, there is a large current of campus lesbians who can over politicize themselves and everything around them. Damn Kantian hippies.

But yeah, at the end of the day, even your massive libido (still not as massive as mine) can be shared with somebody who is interested enough in you to take interest in something they normally wouldn't. I would take about Randy hours on end, because you are a thinking, relatable caring person. Don't underestimate that, people may be too dumb to see your value now, but they'll wise up and appreciate you.

Missed you.

 

[yummylongsword]

I'm SO TIRED of people trying to define what gay male behavior SHOULD be.

People like that have psychiatric issues.

Accept people how they ARE - no how you wish they should be.

It's like a fucking sociological hang over from the hang ups of insecure men.

And it's pathetic.

It stems from the repression of women. It comes from well defined gender roles and the idea that men behave one way and women behave another way. It's just another form of stereotyping.

It's revolting and a big turn off for me.

Yet at the same time, there's a role that gay men "should" play. Anyone who isn't interested in fashion and Cher is labeled self-hating and in the closet.

There are stereotypes everywhere, and the worst thing is when a community says "we hate stereotypes!" but then go and stereotype THEMSELVES.

If I don't make friends with flamers, people say I'm a hater. I'm not, I just don't tend to click with those kinds of people as my friends. And the problem is that there are SO many gay guys that act so stereotypically, and a lot of them aren't just "being who they are," they're conforming to stereotypes that the gay community has set out for them.

Stereotypes work both ways.

 

[Telstra]

fag hag

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cl_GgBG7Bg[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsDFLbuG7LU[/ame]

 

[easyroad]

Yet at the same time, there's a role that gay men "should" play. Anyone who isn't interested in fashion and Cher is labeled self-hating and in the closet.

There are stereotypes everywhere, and the worst thing is when a community says "we hate stereotypes!" but then go and stereotype THEMSELVES.

If I don't make friends with flamers, people say I'm a hater. I'm not, I just don't tend to click with those kinds of people as my friends. And the problem is that there are SO many gay guys that act so stereotypically, and a lot of them aren't just "being who they are," they're conforming to stereotypes that the gay community has set out for them.

Stereotypes work both ways.

I refuse to believe that everyone is like that. Those people are just as ignorant as homophobes. Screw them.

What makes you say that people aren't "being who they are"? Do you know people who fake their posture only to get along with some idiots?

And what's the point of "conforming to stereotypes", anyway? Why get out of the closet if you'll just go into another? In this situation, the best course of action is to find new friends!

 

[HunterM]

I get along with everyone. But when it comes to getting my dick hard I have two rules: If I want a man, I want a man. If I want a woman, I want a woman.

I don't want a man who acts like or thinks he is a female. Nothing turns me off more, sexually.

Sorry.

I am the same way. I know a woman who is a body builder. She has bigger muscles than most men. I suspect she's taking steroid...but that's another story. Anway, she does not turn me on at all. No offense, it's just a personal preference. Just like some people prefer blonds over brunettes. Her manerism and appearance are very manly. She and I get along fine. She has a good sense of humor. My dick just does not get hard for her.

 

[yummylongsword]

What makes you say that people aren't "being who they are"? Do you know people who fake their posture only to get along with some idiots?

No one has explicitly told me so... but honestly, there are far too many gay guys that act exactly the same for it to just be "natural personality." I see some gay guys that I initially liked become more and more fake and flamey, until I don't even recognize them anymore. Two former friends come to mind. It's super unfortunate. There are definitely guys that I know that are obviously gay, but are still unique in their tastes and personality. But they're rare.

And what's the point of "conforming to stereotypes", anyway? Why get out of the closet if you'll just go into another? In this situation, the best course of action is to find new friends!

I know! I don't understand. The gay community seems really shallow and conformist as a whole... and I hate it. I'm afraid I won't even find anyone, because 90% of the gay people I meet are all the same, and often unpleasant. I've only had one really good gay friend in the past, and then he stopped talking to me when I declined to date him. So now I just hang out with straight people. I wish I had more people to talk to about "gay things," but I guess it's just not to be, at least not any time soon.

 

[easyroad]

No one has explicitly told me so... but honestly, there are far too many gay guys that act exactly the same for it to just be "natural personality." I see some gay guys that I initially liked become more and more fake and flamey, until I don't even recognize them anymore. Two former friends come to mind. It's super unfortunate. There are definitely guys that I know that are obviously gay, but are still unique in their tastes and personality. But they're rare.

I don't know, I think that this actually proves the point. It's highly unlikely that so many people can be what some would call "stereotypical" for so long if that's not natural for them. I hang around with straight guys most of the time and catch a few of their mannerisms, but only those that I identify with or find fun. Peer pressure only goes so far.

In my opinion, that's the case with the "effeminate and camp" crowd. They relate with this style. Why else would they behave like that? Forced assimilation? To piss straight people off? Those reasons sound too simplistic. I don't identify with camp, but I see no reason to be bothered by it. And I think it's important for people to reflect on their annoyance and see if it's justified or if it comes from an ugly place.

 

[yummylongsword]

I don't know, I think that this actually proves the point. It's highly unlikely that so many people can be what some would call "stereotypical" for so long if that's not natural for them. I hang around with straight guys most of the time and catch a few of their mannerisms, but only those that I identify with or find fun. Peer pressure only goes so far.

In my opinion, that's the case with the "effeminate and camp" crowd. They relate with this style. Why else would they behave like that? Forced assimilation? To piss straight people off? Those reasons sound too simplistic. I don't identify with camp, but I see no reason to be bothered by it. And I think it's important for people to reflect on their annoyance and see if it's justified or if it comes from an ugly place.

I don't know about that. Look at how many people act "ghetto," wear the baggy pants and act like they were raised by wolves. That's one of the most common subcultures in the U.S., and it's definitely not "natural" just because a lot of people are doing it.

Peer pressure, or rather society's pressure, goes very very far indeed. People have killed themselves due to peer/society's pressure, and they do quite often. Conforming to SOME group you can identify with is the only thing that keeps some people sane, and gays are no exception. I feel like a lot of gay people don't feel like they can be gay and be part of a "straight culture," so they conform to this gay subculture so they can be part of a close-knit and (at times) prejudiced community.

Just my opinion, not based on fact at all. I'm sure a lot of straight people hide their "gay" tendencies, while gay people take them too far. If everyone REALLY acted the way they naturally are (although it's difficult to define "natural" in a structured society), I think you'd find that just as many straight people act feminine as gays, and vice versa.

 

[easyroad]

I don't know about that. Look at how many people act "ghetto," wear the baggy pants and act like they were raised by wolves. That's one of the most common subcultures in the U.S., and it's definitely not "natural" just because a lot of people are doing it.

But you're saying "natural" with the connotation of "normal", which is not what I meant. I said "natural for them", which means something they identify with and relate to. In that sense, "ghetto" is very natural for a lot of straight men (black and white). They like how it focuses on masculinity and power, that it doesn't care if you speak english correctly as long as you don't forget your roots, and even see the humor in how crass it is.

Peer pressure, or rather society's pressure, goes very very far indeed. People have killed themselves due to peer/society's pressure, and they do quite often. Conforming to SOME group you can identify with is the only thing that keeps some people sane, and gays are no exception. I feel like a lot of gay people don't feel like they can be gay and be part of a "straight culture," so they conform to this gay subculture so they can be part of a close-knit and (at times) prejudiced community.

But conforming to a culture is not as easy as you make it seem. If you don't relate to it, then it's not going to happen.

For example: my best friends share my interest in videogames (which is how I met them) and we are very close. But for a good time now, they have been waaay into UFC, MMA and all kinds of fighting championships. And ever since, I've been enduring conversations where I just stand there waiting for them to change the subject, because that doesn't interest me. And no matter how much I tried, I couldn't get into it. It's just not for me, you know? So peer pressure doesn't change you so drastically that you start liking things that you don't.

 

[seven2go]

minus the rap music that kinda sounds like all of my friends. gay friends by the way.

do i need to tell them now that they are not gay

If it would butch them up a bit why not?...... .......

 

[yummylongsword]

But you're saying "natural" with the connotation of "normal", which is not what I meant. I said "natural for them", which means something they identify with and relate to. In that sense, "ghetto" is very natural for a lot of straight men (black and white). They like how it focuses on masculinity and power, that it doesn't care if you speak english correctly as long as you don't forget your roots, and even see the humor in how crass it is.

I don't think people choose to act ghetto because they like how it "focuses on masculinity and power, and that it doesn't care if you speak English correctly as long as you don't forget your roots," they do it because it'll make them seem cool or because everyone else is doing it. Notice how white, middle-class high schoolers almost always grow out of it and into more personal tastes (not that they drop a facade entirely). Unfortunately a lot of people that are ACTUALLY from the ghetto never grow out of it, which is a serious problem here in the U.S. But I digress.

But conforming to a culture is not as easy as you make it seem. If you don't relate to it, then it's not going to happen.

For example: my best friends share my interest in videogames (which is how I met them) and we are very close. But for a good time now, they have been waaay into UFC, MMA and all kinds of fighting championships. And ever since, I've been enduring conversations where I just stand there waiting for them to change the subject, because that doesn't interest me. And no matter how much I tried, I couldn't get into it. It's just not for me, you know? So peer pressure doesn't change you so drastically that you start liking things that you don't.

Just because peer pressure doesn't change YOU so drastically that you start liking things you don't, doesn't mean that other people don't get affected more. Congratulations, you're not one to cave into peer pressure. MOST people are not immune to it... and honestly, it's unhealthy to be completely oblivious to the tastes and preferences of everyone around you.

I know that I have tried to act a certain way to try and seem "cooler" to people I'm hanging out with. It usually works, because a lot of people f@#king suck and only pay attention to you if you fit their definition of "interesting." Just because you don't experience a lot of peer pressure doesn't mean that other people don't. I mean, gay people hide their sexuality from the world all the time and pretend to like the opposite sex... but I suppose "peer pressure doesn't change you so drastically that you start liking things that you don't."

 

[wenchine-mahtapasikan]

Brief note: As a linguist familiar with AAVE ("ghetto" English), I can assure you this dialect is not inferior in its communicative capacity and even has several verb tenses white standard English does not.
For those of you trapped enough in the outdated and disproved notions of Sapir-Whorf to believe that AAVE speakers are somehow inferior or "crass", do you know how to communicate a present habitual action without adverbs in white English? Didn't think so. There is plenty wrong with "ghetto" culture, yes. Machismo, family dynamic etc. However, there's also plenty wrong with the culture of people who sit in their privilege and deride those without it.
If you are going to deride African-American urban culture, at least deride the right things about it.

Guess that wasn't so brief, back to topic:

@Corny: She was talking about her frustration at the lack of diversity in the gay community near HER. She obviously seeks the company of gays like that on here. Give her time and she'll reconcile that.

@Debate about naturalness of femme gays: It's possible for there to be some complex many gay guys experience dealing with their identity pressuring them towards convergent behavior.

 

[texan_slant]

We are, "who we are." I don't act "straight" or "gay"; I'm just myself.

I'm not the most "typically masculine" guy - I don't work on cars, I don't watch sports, nor do I eat pizza and beer all the time, or leer at women.

I'm pretty confident; I am "who I am;" yet all of my closest friends are straight guys. It's not intentional; it's just who I connect with the most.

Society is too stuck on labels and stereotypes. True as they might be, we as a society are also wrongly stuck on who we're supposed to be, who we're supposed to hang out with, etc.

Chances are, there are plenty of men out there, who feel as you do, and I am sure that there are plenty of straight men out there who act like "gay people" and are really straight!

I try not to get stuck on "perceived conformity."

 

[easyroad]

I don't think people choose to act ghetto because they like how it "focuses on masculinity and power, and that it doesn't care if you speak English correctly as long as you don't forget your roots," they do it because it'll make them seem cool or because everyone else is doing it. Notice how white, middle-class high schoolers almost always grow out of it and into more personal tastes (not that they drop a facade entirely). Unfortunately a lot of people that are ACTUALLY from the ghetto never grow out of it, which is a serious problem here in the U.S. But I digress.

That's my point: those who don't identify with it grow out of it. Those who do, stick with it. It might be about other people at first, but if it lingers on, that's a sign that they had it in them all along.

Just because peer pressure doesn't change YOU so drastically that you start liking things you don't, doesn't mean that other people don't get affected more. Congratulations, you're not one to cave into peer pressure. MOST people are not immune to it... and honestly, it's unhealthy to be completely oblivious to the tastes and preferences of everyone around you.

I know, right? While we're on that, I also shouldn't have been oblivious to the fact that most men like women. Why did I get out of the closet at all?

Come on, now.

I know that I have tried to act a certain way to try and seem "cooler" to people I'm hanging out with. It usually works, because a lot of people f@#king suck and only pay attention to you if you fit their definition of "interesting." Just because you don't experience a lot of peer pressure doesn't mean that other people don't. I mean, gay people hide their sexuality from the world all the time and pretend to like the opposite sex... but I suppose "peer pressure doesn't change you so drastically that you start liking things that you don't."

If they're actually gay, they won't be happy about it. Those are the ones most likely to commit suicide.

 

[pai mei]

I don't know about that. Look at how many people act "ghetto," wear the baggy pants and act like they were raised by wolves. That's one of the most common subcultures in the U.S., and it's definitely not "natural" just because a lot of people are doing it.

Peer pressure, or rather society's pressure, goes very very far indeed. People have killed themselves due to peer/society's pressure, and they do quite often. Conforming to SOME group you can identify with is the only thing that keeps some people sane, and gays are no exception. I feel like a lot of gay people don't feel like they can be gay and be part of a "straight culture," so they conform to this gay subculture so they can be part of a close-knit and (at times) prejudiced community.

Just my opinion, not based on fact at all. I'm sure a lot of straight people hide their "gay" tendencies, while gay people take them too far. If everyone REALLY acted the way they naturally are (although it's difficult to define "natural" in a structured society), I think you'd find that just as many straight people act feminine as gays, and vice versa.

i think that's pretty good. let's also not forget that the notion of some natural behavior in humans which can only be achieved once removed from societal tendencies, is non-existant. we ARE social creatures, not by chance, but biologically. there is no 'natural' behavior if only we could break free of society. we are society, and we only funcion 'naturally' within it. complete removal from society has for the most part caused mental illness, depressions, and so on in individuals.

so i think you hit the nail on the head fairly well there, finding one's place within society IS natural. many of us supressed 'belonging' for so long that it is truly liberating to finally be able to 'be that stereotype.' i think you are correct when you said it is a sense of belonging that helps fullfill us.

personally, i'm only a short duration removed from closeted, and already i've taken up waaaayyy more interest in clothing and skin care lol. i know.. cliche... whatever. it's what i want to do, and it's what i've always wanted to do. that said i till love sports, mma, hockey, etc. i'm not a stereotype i suppose... but i definitely moved a little bit closer after coming out.

 

[versatileplayer]

Yet at the same time, there's a role that gay men "should" play. Anyone who isn't interested in fashion and Cher is labeled self-hating and in the closet.

There are stereotypes everywhere, and the worst thing is when a community says "we hate stereotypes!" but then go and stereotype THEMSELVES.

If I don't make friends with flamers, people say I'm a hater. I'm not, I just don't tend to click with those kinds of people as my friends. And the problem is that there are SO many gay guys that act so stereotypically, and a lot of them aren't just "being who they are," they're conforming to stereotypes that the gay community has set out for them.

Stereotypes work both ways.

They are being how they want to be at the time - and it's their life to be how they want to be - people are to be defined by themselves - not by you. It's called "self actualization" and it's much more mentally healthy than one who imposes himself onto others.

Yes, there are gay men who fit all gay stereotypes ever created, and they are now creating even more for themselves and the world - and to them I say - Swish on brother - live it love it - do it.

And yes, there are gay men like myself who would be difficult to distinguish from heterosexual men on the street. Does that mean I'm somehow superior to the flitty little femmy boy who records ever episode of Glee and watches is 4 and 5 times? Hell no. I'm me, he is himself - and there is nothing wrong with either of us.