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I had a conversation with islamophobic schoolboys yesterday

Sorry Andreus, that doesn't wash with me. I've worked with Muslims both Bangladeshi and Pakistani - there is an atmosphere of sympathy with what the terrorists have done/are doing - not outright support - but not condemnation either.

I do not consider these terrorists as 'Muslim' - Muslims wouldn't perform such atrocities - what is worrying is that many Muslims do consider the terrorists to be Muslim i.e. counting them as your own.
 
Sorry Andreus, that doesn't wash with me. I've worked with Muslims both Bangladeshi and Pakistani - there is an atmosphere of sympathy with what the terrorists have done/are doing - not outright support - but not condemnation either.

I do not consider these terrorists as 'Muslim' - Muslims wouldn't perform such atrocities - what is worrying is that many Muslims do consider the terrorists to be Muslim i.e. counting them as your own.

I only reentered this discussion because I respect you and like you, so lets make this brief..lol ;)

We do not consider them hopeless animals... we consider them misguided and violent aberations that can be changed if we do not give them the power of attention. In my culture the greatest insult is to ignore them. To simply fail to acnowlege that they are worthy of even verbal discussion. That is what they will respond to... conversely... that is why they are continuing their tirades.... because so many are giving them so much power through ongoing attention.

the absolute diferences of cultures are in play here gentlemen, and we are doing the world an injustice by not seeing that. The very means of solving these issues are in fact alien to the oposing cultures in play.

and so...

getting back to the intent of the threadstarter...

do you advocate the destruction of all people of the muslim faith?
 
and so...

getting back to the intent of the threadstarter...

do you advocate the destruction of all people of the muslim faith?

I refer the honorable gentleman to the comments i made in Post #2 of this thread.

And for the sake of tiredness will over-look his avoidance of the questions.
 
I refer the honorable gentleman to the comments i made in Post #2 of this thread.

And for the sake of tiredness will over-look his avoidance of the questions.

YAY !!!

we agree on this then

(!) (!) (!) (!) (!)

I think I need a cup of tea now ;)
 
there have been many Fatwas and protests against these fundamentalists, far more than the christian conservatives have faced at the hands of their brethren, but the sad truth is that while these things get covered in europe and asia, they rarely get covered in america.

I live in Canada, and although I don't watch a lot of news, I have to say that I've NEVER seen this covered here. That bothers me, because this is the first I'm hearing of this (I've apparently missed your earlier posts on this !oops! ), and I feel a lot better about not supporting Islamophobia.

Does anyone know why this isn't getting reported? I'd hate to think we were being herded towards Armageddon because it gets better ratings. :(
 
I hope these links and posts puts a few minds to rest and engenders peace and understanding

[SIZE=+2]American Muslims issue anti-terrorism fatwa[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]WASHINGTON, July 28, 2005 - The Fiqh Council of North America issued a fatwa, or religious edict, today saying that Islam condemns terrorism, religious radicalism and the use of violence.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The council's chairman, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, read the fatwa, which says "targeting civilians' life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is forbidden, and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not martyrs." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"All acts of terrorism targeting the civilians are haram, forbidden in Islam. It is haram, forbidden, for a Muslim to cooperate or associate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence." The fatwa also says it is the "civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of civilians."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Islamic scholars say the fatwa was prompted by a similar ruling from the Muslim Council of Britain, following the July 7 terrorist attacks in London. The fatwa was part of efforts by the 7-million strong American Muslim community to counter alleged links between Islam and terrorism and avert any negative backlash after this month's bombings in London.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Having our religious scholars side by side with our community leaders leaves no room for anybody to suggest that Islam and Muslims condone or support any forms or acts of terrorism," said Esam Omeish, president of the Muslim American Society, one of the groups which announced the fatwa. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ibrahim Hooper, spokesperson for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said it was the first time Muslims in North America had issued an anti-terrorism edict, although they had repeatedly condemned such acts of violence. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Hooper said Thursday's religious ruling, issued by the Fiqh Council of North America, said: "We clearly and strongly state (that) all acts of terrorism targeting civilians are 'haram' (forbidden) in Islam." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"It is 'haram' for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence, and it is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians," he quoted the ruling as saying. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Fiqh Council is an association of Islamic legal scholars that interprets Islamic religious law. Hooper said it was the only one of its kind in North America. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Some 130 North American Muslim organizations and leaders have signed and endorsed the fatwa. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Similar anti-terrorism fatwas have been issued by other Muslim communities. After the bombings in London religious leaders from about 500 British mosques issued such an edict and presented it to local politicians. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]While the Muslim world does not look to America as a center of Islamic thinking, U.S. Muslims wanted to send a message about their faith. Muslim leaders lament that their repeated condemnations of terrorism since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks have been ignored by critics. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Muslim Public Affairs Council, an advocacy group based in Los Angeles, started the ``National Anti-Terrorism Campaign,'' urging Muslims to monitor their own communities, speak out more boldly against violence and work with law enforcement officials. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Council on American-Islamic Relations is running a TV ad and a petition-drive called ``Not in the Name of Islam,'' which repudiates terrorism. In New York and other cities, mosque leaders have joined advisory committees created by the FBI to build relations between law enforcement and their local communities. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]``We have been speaking repeatedly, clearly, unequivocally for years, even before 9/11,'' said Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a civil rights organization based in Washington. ``But apparently some people have just started to hear us.'' [/SIZE][SIZE=-1](Source: Media Reports)[/SIZE]​
July 28, 2005
[SIZE=+2]Text of the Fiqh Council of North America fatwa[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]The Fiqh Council of North America wishes to reaffirm Islam's absolute condemnation of terrorism and religious extremism. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not “martyrs.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Qur’an, Islam’s revealed text, states: "Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Qur’an, 5:32) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Prophet Muhammad said there is no excuse for committing unjust acts: "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil." (Al-Tirmidhi)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]God mandates moderation in faith and in all aspects of life when He states in the Qur’an: “We made you to be a community of the middle way, so that (with the example of your lives) you might bear witness to the truth before all mankind.” (Qur’an, 2:143)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In another verse, God explains our duties as human beings when he says: “Let there arise from among you a band of people who invite to righteousness, and enjoin good and forbid evil.” (Qur’an, 3:104)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Islam teaches us to act in a caring manner to all of God's creation. The Prophet Muhammad, who is described in the Qur’an as “a mercy to the worlds” said: “All creation is the family of God, and the person most beloved by God (is the one) who is kind and caring toward His family." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In the light of the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah we clearly and strongly state:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]We issue this fatwa following the guidance of our scripture, the Qur’an, and the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad – peace be upon him. We urge all people to resolve all conflicts in just and peaceful manners. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism. We pray for the safety and security of our country, the United States, and its people. We pray for the safety and security of all inhabitants of our planet. We pray that interfaith harmony and cooperation prevail both in the United States and all around the globe. [/SIZE]​


[SIZE=-1]Fiqh Council of North America [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Members[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1. Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2. Dr. Abdul Hakim Jackson [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3. Dr. Ahmad Shleibak [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]4. Dr. Akbar Muhammad [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5. Dr. Deina Abdulkadir [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]6. Shaikh Hassan Qazwini [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]7. Dr. Ihsan Bagby [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]8. Dr. Jamal Badawi [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]9. Dr. Muhammad Adam Sheikh [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]10. Shaikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]11. Shaikh Muhammad Nur Abdallah [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]12. Dr. Salah Soltan [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]13. Dr. Taha Jabir Alalwani [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]14. Shaikh Yahya Hindi [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]15. Shaikhah Zainab Alwani [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]16. Dr. Zulfiqar Ali Shah [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]17. Dr. Mukhtar Maghraoui [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]18. Dr. Nazih Hammad [/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]ENDORSED BY: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]More than 145 Muslim organizations, mosques and imams have endorsed the preceding fatwa as of July 28, 2005.[/SIZE]




[SIZE=-1]here is a link to the anti terrorism anti exremism website.....[/SIZE]​


[SIZE=-1]and also the Fatwa of England....[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]The following is a fatwa issued by the British Muslim Forum[/SIZE]​


[SIZE=-1]On behalf of over 500 clerics, scholars and Imams the British Muslim Forum issues the following religious decree: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are haram - vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London are criminals not martyrs. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Holy Koran declares: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Whoever kills a human being, then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Koran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Islam teaches us to be caring towards all of Allah's (God's) creation, not just mankind. The Prophet of Islam who was described as "a mercy to the worlds" said: "All creation is the family of Allah and that person is most beloved to Allah who is kind and caring towards His family." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Islam's position is clear and unequivocal: murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism in the world. We pray for peace, security and harmony to triumph in multicultural Great Britain.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]and then...[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]NewsMax.com source:[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]Anti-terror Fatwa Gets 'Bravos' [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]

The e-mail messages from Muslims began moments after the release of a religious edict condemning al-Qaida. They came from every corner of the world. Soon they were tumbling in too fast to handle.

"I couldn't even read them all. There are at least 1,000. Maybe more," said Mansur Escudero, secretary-general of the Islamic Commission of Spain. "The tone was nearly all the same: 'It's about time someone did it. Bravo!'"

The fatwa, issued on the anniversary of the Madrid train bombings that claimed 191 lives, was believed to be the first cleric-sanctioned condemnation directly against Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida. But it highlights a wider, critical dialogue emerging across the Islamic world.
Moderate Muslims are increasingly turning to Islam's sacred core - the Quran and the laws and traditions it inspires - to defend their views and discredit radicals as part of a "counter-jihad" for Islamic hearts and minds.

Terrorist attacks by al-Qaida and other violent groups add urgency to the ideological debate, which challenges the long dominance of Saudi Arabia's fundamentalist Wahhabist strain that has used its wealth and influence to mute moderate Islamic voices.

"The long and painful silence of moderate theologians and experts in Islam jurisprudence - who had been bought off or intimidated into silence - is finally starting to break apart," said Khaled Abou El Fadl, an authority on Islamic law at UCLA. "We are seeing signs of a counter-jihad."

The March 11 fatwa by Spain's highest Muslim authority and the deluge of support messages appeared to touch the frustration among mainstream Muslims. But the response was dominated by those outside the Middle East, suggesting the centers of moderate influence reside outside traditional Muslim areas.

From Canada: "Thank you for taking a stand."

From the United States: "I'm glad that someone of authority in Islam is taking a stand and demanding their religion back from the terrorists who have hijacked it."

From Australia: "This is important. This has the possibility for real impact."

From Mexico: "All good Muslims are with you."
"This shows the Muslim world is tired of the harm that radicals and terrorists are doing to Islam," said Escudero, whose declaration carried the support of Muslim leaders in Morocco, Algeria and Libya. "We hope this will inspire others to speak out."

[/SIZE]
 
In fact the schoolboys were actually maturing adolescents on the verge of leaving school and going to university. One of them is going to study medecine and train to be a doctor and the other might be going into the armed forces. Both of them are clever A-scoring prefects and the one who is going into the armed forces does politics and religious studies as his subjects. Also bear in mind that they attend a prestigious public school- £4000 a term! However ignoring their bigoted views they are actually nice people, the one training to be a doctor I've known since I was 5. But as for the one going into the armed forces, when looking at universities, he would actually reject universities based on how many international students went there or how big a percentage an ethnic group was! Also he went to Auschwitz last year with me and if history cannot prevent his discrimination I don't know what else will :(

I have atheist views on any religion but I'm aware of its role in the moral and spiritual guidance to its believers. However unlike the two guys mentioned I'll never see one religion (unlike the 2 guys) being superior to the other because in my eyes they are all equal.

Politicians have created a climate of fear perhaps to boost their numbers in elections or because the threat is really that serious. However this seems to have increased islamophobia as said eloquently by Andreus and it's worsened by the fact that extremists' actions grab more headlines than moderate muslims condemning them. I don't think we can really judge whether politicians creating this climate of fear is right or wrong because we don't know the full extent of the terrorist threat. Only history will be able to judge that.

As for the "solution" mine would be to just live as we did before 9/11. That was a time when we just co-existed in mutual acceptance and there's no reason to let a mad minority destroy that peaceful co-existence. Also I noticed that the guys mentioned above had never really had personal contact with muslims. There was this muslim kid whom I was casual friends with when I was 14 and he was a really nice, funny (and playful (!) ) boy. If all you hear of muslims in the headlines of newspapers is through terrorist attacks then it's understandable to see why this islamophobia grows.
 
I'm not being racist in this comment, merely observational: You can say you want peace and that people taking civilian lives are terrorists, not martyr, while thinknig the exact opposite. What you say doesn't neccesarily translate to what you really think.

So no, that brings me no peace whatsoever. My dad works with some very nice Muslims here in the UK who are great people, and while all the Muslim churches (I forget what they are called) say they condemn the hatred of the western nations, even THEY said that they don't want to go to the muslim churches becasue when they go there it is exactly the opposite and it is filled with hatred for them.
 
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