"I have a friend"

[fabulouslyghetto]

I know when people hear that their first thought is, "Ok, yeah, so what's your friends problem?" But it's not me there really is a friend. Anywho, he's a country boy, was raised in a religious household and has struggled for years with his sexuality. We dated when we were 19 then he left me because he couldn't deal with being a homo. He tried going the straight and narrow (pun intended), got married, had a kid and found that he wasn't happy being with a woman so he and his wife divorced. He's hit rock bottom pretty hard a few times, around the time we were dating he used to cut himself. A few years later he did this again and ended up in the hospital because he cut pretty deep. (Not the hospital, the HOSPITAL, strait jacket TIME TO TAKE YOUR MEDS hospital).

Well apparently he got over it because he switched back to our team and for the past year he's been dating a guy and that relationship is woefully toxic-- violent (they've had multiple fights), manipulative, he lost his car because the boy would always ask him for weed money so his car was repossessed, he'll buy this boy weed and then the boy will disappear, stop answering his calls et cetera, you know how users are, once they got what they need out of you they dipset (bounce, skedaddle). He's a pushover type, tried breaking up with the guy a few times and each time he gets suckered back into the cycle.

So bringing us to today, my friend has been in pretty good spirits lately (aside from the relationship) but today he's been pretty despondent because he's going through another one of those "Being gay is wrong I hate this about myself" spells. I know the way I reconciled my spirituality (in his case religion) with my sexuality was pretty simple, then again I've never really been indoctrinated into religion. I know he's not going to abandon his faith and I don't really want him to, but I do want to guide him into a deeper understanding of both human sexuality and faith and how to merge the two without going crazy. Any gay Christians who have some advice for how to steer him into a healthier direction?

I've found this website pretty useful, I used to cite it in e-debates about religion and sexuality http://www.gaychristian101.com/gay-christian-faq.html

Also forgot to mention, he's been seeing a psych once a week on and off and is on some kind of anti-anxiety medication so he's at least aware that he's damaged, but I feel stuck as to how to help him because he's staunchly traditionalist with his religion and is bull-headed about seeing homosexuality as anything other than wrong and sinful. He's kind of gone back and forth, he was closeted for years and eventually came out to his family, baby's mother and just last week came out to a coworker so I feel like he's not entirely a lost cause.

 

[Ganoderma]

hi fabulouslyghetto,

It is great and wonderful that you are willing to help your friend, but it seems to me that this will be very tough and/or almost impossible as long as he is unwilling to change his religious views and it seems to me that you are already aware that the chance is almost nil that this will happen ("he's staunchly traditionalist with his religion and is bull-headed about seeing homosexuality as anything other than wrong and sinful.").

Do you happen to have any idea about the views of this psych about gay people? Is this person a relifundi (like your friend), or are the views of this psych comparable with your views about gay people?

 

[eastofeden]

Have you ever tried talking about the different aspects of spirituality and defining God for yourself to him?

The reason I say this.....Christianity and most organized religion have endless arguments and interpretations for most everything....there is a bit of brain washing involved IMO...

Do you know his parents? How much of an influence they had on his beliefs?

I also would suggest some resources that don't overtly address the gay issue because I have watched Christians quote scripture endlessly refuting all of it...leaving the person listening with a sense of shame and guilt....

Instead...you might try to steer him to a Christian who preaches equality because it includes gay people and non judgement and unconditional love...a broader concept that INCLUDES gay people. Hell..even I listen to people like that..humanitarians...

Cecil Williams GLIDE is a great one. You can find specific sermons....

 

[KaraBulut]

...he's been dating a guy and that relationship is woefully toxic-- violent (they've had multiple fights), manipulative, he lost his car because the boy would always ask him for weed money so his car was repossessed,...tried breaking up with the guy a few times and each time he gets suckered back into the cycle.

....he's not going to abandon his faith and I don't really want him to, but I do want to guide him into a deeper understanding of both human sexuality and faith and how to merge the two without going crazy. Any gay Christians who have some advice for how to steer him into a healthier direction?

Well, the question that always comes to mind in these situations is "Does your friend see that there's an issue that he needs to fix?".

He's got a lot of surface problems but the real problems are deeper in. What seems like codependence and self-destructive behavior is probably a deeper self-esteem issue that takes acknowledging that there's an issue and commitment to fixing it. There's a lot of these guys who show up at the psychiatrist's office, complain about their problems, get their prescriptions renewed but never actually work on changing the root of the problems.

There's lots of churches out there. If you friend is attending one of those "hate the sin, love the sinner" churches, then he's in the wrong church. For people who are already struggling with self-image and self-acceptance, being constantly labeled "a sinner" isn't going to work. Find a church that doesn't label gay people as sinners and never look back.

As for you- it's important to accept that some people are just broken and only they can fix themselves. There's a line between being a supportive friend and getting sucked into the vortex of a friend's problems. In cases like this, being the calm yet firm voice that praises them for their successes and calls them out when they're falling into self-destructive patterns of behavior is the extent of what a friend is required to do. Don't fall into the patterns of codependent behavior that codependents inspire in others.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Do you happen to have any idea about the views of this psych about gay people? Is this person a relifundi (like your friend), or are the views of this psych comparable with your views about gay people?

I've been curious about that but too shy to ask.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Have you ever tried talking about the different aspects of spirituality and defining God for yourself to him?

The reason I say this.....Christianity and most organized religion have endless arguments and interpretations for most everything....there is a bit of brain washing involved IMO...

Do you know his parents? How much of an influence they had on his beliefs?

I also would suggest some resources that don't overtly address the gay issue because I have watched Christians quote scripture endlessly refuting all of it...leaving the person listening with a sense of shame and guilt....

Instead...you might try to steer him to a Christian who preaches equality because it includes gay people and non judgement and unconditional love...a broader concept that INCLUDES gay people. Hell..even I listen to people like that..humanitarians...

Cecil Williams GLIDE is a great one. You can find specific sermons....

That's the way I've been leaning, finding local gay-friendly churches. He's from a VERY small town in Bumfuck, South Carolina so his world views are very limited, narrow, black/white. The only reason I haven't entirely written him off as a lost cause is him coming to his family/friends/coworkers represents at least a modicum of progression towards self-acceptance.

We have had discussions about religion and I try to explain to him that if the crux of your beliefs are what someone regurgitated for you then they aren't really YOUR beliefs and you're pretty much just a robot, I try to appeal to him with simple logic but... you know how fundamentalists can be, talking in circles and ignoring the most basic logic.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Well, the question that always comes to mind in these situations is "Does your friend see that there's an issue that he needs to fix?".

He's got a lot of surface problems but the real problems are deeper in. What seems like codependence and self-destructive behavior is probably a deeper self-esteem issue that takes acknowledging that there's an issue and commitment to fixing it. There's a lot of these guys who show up at the psychiatrist's office, complain about their problems, get their prescriptions renewed but never actually work on changing the root of the problems.

There's lots of churches out there. If you friend is attending one of those "hate the sin, love the sinner" churches, then he's in the wrong church. For people who are already struggling with self-image and self-acceptance, being constantly labeled "a sinner" isn't going to work. Find a church that doesn't label gay people as sinners and never look back.

As for you- it's important to accept that some people are just broken and only they can fix themselves. There's a line between being a supportive friend and getting sucked into the vortex of a friend's problems. In cases like this, being the calm yet firm voice that praises them for their successes and calls them out when they're falling into self-destructive patterns of behavior is the extent of what a friend is required to do. Don't fall into the patterns of codependent behavior that codependents inspire in others.

He is at least aware that all of his depression and anxiety stem from his self-loathing, he's just caught in a loop of being ok with it and not being ok with it. It's almost like a puzzle to me, figuring out how exactly to present him with the knowledge he needs to understand that homosexuality is natural. I tried this past weekend by breaking down the definition of "natural" and how sexuality is a spectrum all throughout the animal kingdom but he fell back on "but the bible says...." to which I reminded him the bible says lots of things that just don't make sense but you know how fundis are, their capability for mental gymnastics are Olympic-worthy.

 

[KaraBulut]

He is at least aware that all of his depression and anxiety stem from his self-loathing, he's just caught in a loop of being ok with it and not being ok with it. It's almost like a puzzle to me, figuring out how exactly to present him with the knowledge he needs to understand that homosexuality is natural. I tried this past weekend by breaking down the definition of "natural" and how sexuality is a spectrum all throughout the animal kingdom but he fell back on "but the bible says...." to which I reminded him the bible says lots of things that just don't make sense but you know how fundis are, their capability for mental gymnastics are Olympic-worthy.

And that's the thing with so many of these guys who get into religion to "fix" their problems: their approach is largely inductive- starting with the conclusion that they're sinners who need to be fixed and then working their way across the buffet of the Bible feasting on the verses that support that conclusion.

No matter how many times you point out that there's hundreds of other verses in Leviticus that they're not obsessing about... No matter how many times you question how a "perfect" God would make homosexuals, only to write them off as sinning sodomites... You can't get them off of that conclusion that they're sinners because their self-loathing comes from within and not from their religion. The religion just enabled that self-hatred and provides a exit door that they're looking for... because Jesus can fix everything.

The key is for him to get serious in his work with his therapist and work on that core self-esteem issue... assuming that he sees it.

 

[peeonme]

He is at least aware that all of his depression and anxiety stem from his self-loathing, he's just caught in a loop of being ok with it and not being ok with it. It's almost like a puzzle to me, figuring out how exactly to present him with the knowledge he needs to understand that homosexuality is natural. I tried this past weekend by breaking down the definition of "natural" and how sexuality is a spectrum all throughout the animal kingdom but he fell back on "but the bible says...." to which I reminded him the bible says lots of things that just don't make sense but you know how fundis are, their capability for mental gymnastics are Olympic-worthy.

It is difficult to get a fundamentalist to question the Bible. In the early '70's I joined a "Jesus Freak" commune that taught that faith in Christ would make me a new person. I talked myself into believing that God had made me straight. A part of me knew that I still liked guys, however I found that I could function with females and enjoy it, so I married.

It wasn't the return of gay thoughts that made me question the Bible, it was science. Such things as the age of the earth, dinosaurs,
the idea of 6 billion people coming from 2 people who copulated 6 or 7 thousand years ago didn't add up. There were a multitude of other thoughts that made me decide that the Bible could not be taken literally.

Once I arrived at that point I was able to accept myself as I had been born, I was not a mistake of nature or some abomination.
I would encourage you to speak with your friend about known scientific facts without necessarily contrasting them with what the Bible says. Get him curious and make him think, it takes a while for one to move from Adam and Eve to Evolution. I didn't have to reject my faith, I had to amend it.

 

[Seasoned]

You can’t save him. He has to save himself. If his shrink or therapist isn’t helping him suggest he finds others.