If Iran deal fails, it's time to face reality

[thewiz]

I was responding to evanrick's absurd "statement that Republicans start wars, democrats end wars". Of all the wars in US history, only the Spanish American, 2 Iraqs and Afghanistan started during Republican administrations. All other were democrat wars.

Calling WW I or II and the civil war "Democratic" wars is absurd. They were also total wars in which the entire country focused itself on the war effort (issuing war bonds, recycling; they were also paid for; something unknown to Republicons). The Korean Conflict was not a war -- it was a policing action on the part of the UN that unfortunately always relies on the might of the US to enforce. I'd also like to look at who won and who lost wars -- Nixon and Ford (who I respect a great deal) lost Vietnam that set us on a path for malaise and discontent that lasted decades. Sadly, we learned nothing from Vietnam and repeated it again in Afghanistan and Iraq (twice).

 

[Brian Smith]

Much better having this Rouhani guy in charge for sure. Its a 100 fold improvement on Ahmedinijihadi (should have been his real name to represent how crackpot he was).

There has to be unfortunately the constant remembrance that whoever the leader is, its the ayatollah who has the upmost power, and he aint a nice guy. Its not suprising that some are sceptical about the possibility this more co-operative Iran with a less maniacal leader is biding time. Lets hope thats not the case.

Personally, i don't think anything is going to stop a WWIII. War is too good for the elite.

The Ayatollah's position is not without its own strings, regardless of whether he is a nice guy or not. Political reality is that no single ruler ever has truly absolute power.

 

[evanrick]

I was responding to evanrick's absurd "statement that Republicans start wars, democrats end wars". Of all the wars in US history, only the Spanish American, 2 Iraqs and Afghanistan started during Republican administrations. All other were democrat wars.

Bush let 9-11 happen, invaded iraq and started world war three with isis, syria, iran and the muslim world.

there is no 'excuse phase' for this catastrophe. why else are republicans desperately trying to revise history, desperately trying to lie to America again, bush is toast and serves to remind America well how disastrous this republican war has been for this country.

the worst geopolitical move in American history, a turning point for America.

lock Bush up with his 'court' and we will be safe again.

 

[Benvolio]

Yu

Bush let 9-11 happen, invaded iraq and started world war three with isis, syria, iran and the muslim world.

there is no 'excuse phase' for this catastrophe. why else are republicans desperately trying to revise history, desperately trying to lie to America again, bush is toast and serves to remind America well how disastrous this republican war has been for this country.

the worst geopolitical move in American history, a turning point for America.

lock Bush up with his 'court' and we will be safe again.

You are hardly in a position to accuse anyone else of lying. Thrre is no world war three. That is a lie and it triviialzes the two actual world wars. Bush did not allow 9/11 any more than FDR allowed Pearl Harbor, Truman allowed Korea and Clinton allowed the bombing of the twin towers.Another lie.

 

[jbrown329]

Yu

You are hardly in a position to accuse anyone else of lying. Thrre is no world war three. That is a lie and it triviialzes the two actual world wars. Bush did not allow 9/11 any more than FDR allowed Pearl Harbor, Truman allowed Korea and Clinton allowed the bombing of the twin towers.Another lie.

Hmm, just what was that about the PDB that Bush ignored? Oh, I remember now. Bin Laden Determined To Strike in US. Then there's this: Two Months Before 9/11, an Urgent Warning to Rice

And guess who was with us after the 9/11 attacks? Why, it was the Iranians. Then Bush called them the "axis of evil". Goodbye went the moderates in power. In came the hardliners. IOW, codpiece George screwed the pooch and the rest of us with that idiotic statement.

 

[Benvolio]

Neverthe less you cannot say he allowed without pointing out specifically what he could have done. And logically, you must do so knowing what he knew and did not know. With hindsight, and crime or accident could have been prevented. Remember that we already had in place security inspections of airlines passengers and their carry-ons, albeit not as thorough as later. No one guessed that they would be able to hijack a plane with plastic box cutters.

 

[jbrown329]

Neverthe less you cannot say he allowed without pointing out specifically what he could have done. And logically, you must do so knowing what he knew and did not know. With hindsight, and crime or accident could have been prevented. Remember that we already had in place security inspections of airlines passengers and their carry-ons, albeit not as thorough as later. No one guessed that they would be able to hijack a plane with plastic box cutters.

He ignored what the outgoing President had to say about bin Laden. He ignored the FBI, CIA and Richard Clarke. Had he pulled his head out of his ass, the attacks could've been stopped.

Also, Bush had designs on invading Iraq BEFORE he was even elected. Don't believe me? Google is your friend. I will not look the info up for you. I've done that at least 200 times over the last 13yrs in numerous forums.

Sadly I lost my text file with over 150 links in a computer crash. Otherwise, I'd post the whole list.

 

[frankfrank]

Truman allowed Korea and Clinton allowed the bombing of the twin towers.Another lie.

Yes, that's another lie.

 

[Benvolio]

He ignored what the outgoing President had to say about bin Laden. He ignored the FBI, CIA and Richard Clarke. Had he pulled his head out of his ass, the attacks could've been stopped.

Also, Bush had designs on invading Iraq BEFORE he was even elected. Don't believe me? Google is your friend. I will not look the info up for you. I've done that at least 200 times over the last 13yrs in numerous forums.

Sadly I lost my text file with over 150 links in a computer crash. Otherwise, I'd post the whole list.

You haven't pointed out specificaly out what he could have done to have prevented 9/11.

 

[jbrown329]

You haven't pointed out specificaly out what he could have done to have prevented 9/11.

He should have listened to the all who were screaming to get his ass in gear. Instead, he went of his 'ranch' (in reality a converted pig farm) and cut brush. When the PDB was brought to him, he brushed it off.

Then when the attacks happened, he sat in that classroom looking like a deer caught in the headlights. Plus, a whole bunch in his crew were signatories of PNAC. Well, PNAC got what they wanted. "A new Pearl Harbor".

 

[Benvolio]

He should have listened to the all who were screaming to get his ass in gear. Instead, he went of his 'ranch' (in reality a converted pig farm) and cut brush. When the PDB was brought to him, he brushed it off.

Then when the attacks happened, he sat in that classroom looking like a deer caught in the headlights. Plus, a whole bunch in his crew were signatories of PNAC. Well, PNAC got what they wanted. "A new Pearl Harbor".

None of that is relevant since you cannot say SPECIFICALLY what he should have done. Off his ass is meaningless.

 

[jbrown329]

None of that is relevant since you cannot say SPECIFICALLY what he should have done. Off his ass is meaningless.

I already did. Obviously you don't know how to read.

 

[Benvolio]

I already did. Obviously you don't know how to read.

You don't know the meaning of specific.

 

[thewiz]

While I little good to say about the Bush-Cheney regime, this is one case that I actually have to defend Bush and the Intelligence community.

First, no one had ever thought a terrorist group would have the audacity to commandeer loaded passenger planes and fly them into buildings. I remember the days when hijackers would only commandeer a plane that resulted in a diverted flight to Cuba; none ever targeted population centers except to land on their wheels.

Second, the intelligence community then (and still) operates in a silo environment. The oversight from Congress usually results in less than seamless data sharing. The FBI and CIA, for instance, were forbidden to share information back and forth prior to 9-11. Even more troubling was that local police agencies rarely communicated with their federal counterparts (although some did with state police entities).

A tremendous amount of data is created on a daily basis. Mining that data for relevant bits and pieces is not just time consuming but often imprecise. All it takes is missing one piece of chatter and a terrorist incident occurs; the terrorists have thousands of opportunities. The rise of the internet (evidenced by its use by ISIL) only complicates the issue. Even more troubling to me is the effort to cultivate home-grown terrorists. As I've stated in other posts, I get a regular briefing and it would trouble people to know the level of home-grown potential terrorists (not all ISIL inspired) that exist daily in this country. The Bundy episode in the west is just a small tip of the craziness that is fermenting in pockets around the US.

Now that I have defended the actual attack, the resulting invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan only hardened the opposition to the US in the Middle East and led to the rise of ISIL along with other groups. Perhaps if we had stuck to Afghanistan and Bin Laden we may have had more credibility than seizing a country with the only aim to repay an old debt and capture its oil (hell, even Trump now wants to go back for more).

 

[chrisrobin]

One more vote!

 

[jbrown329]

Enough votes to stop the GOP.

 

[Benvolio]

From a purely political point of view, it is the Republicans who should be jumping up and down. Every time Iran does something outrageous the people will remember that Obama Hussein Obama and the democrats lifted the sanctions and facilitated Iran's pursuit of the bomb.

 

[kallipolis]

Iran has been developing nuclear weapons for years while under UN sanctions....lifting the sanctions will change nothing...for Iran remains years away from developing a nuclear weapon....were Iran close to developing a nuclear weapon, its nuclear industry's sites would have been bombed, and destroyed. The Mossad, CIA, and MI6 maintain a close watch on Iran's nuclear weapons development.

Iran is a military partner working alongside The West, combating the rise of Islamic States....an immediate, and potent threat to the security of the Middle East.... but you already know this...

 

[Kulindahr]

Enough votes to stop the GOP.

The GOP hasn't been the problem -- the problem has been ideological jerks like Schumer, who wants to blindly support Israel without ever learning anything from them or their example. That man should be dropped in Afghanistan and left in his own.

 

[Benvolio]

Iran has been developing nuclear weapons for years while under UN sanctions....lifting the sanctions will change nothing...for Iran remains years away from developing a nuclear weapon....were Iran close to developing a nuclear weapon, its nuclear industry's sites would have been bombed, and destroyed. The Mossad, CIA, and MI6 maintain a close watch on Iran's nuclear weapons development.

Iran is a military partner working alongside The West, combating the rise of Islamic States....an immediate, and potent threat to the security of the Middle East.... but you already know this...

Without debating all that, the public will blame the dems whenever Iran does something nasty.