If it looks like a Higgs....

[hotatlboi]

The same thing that keeps the tension in them before it gets built: centripetal force.

Nope, that doesn't work like I said. When an object is in orbit, that is what maintains the tension because it turns the object while maintaining the tangential speed, i.e the tendency of the orbiting object to pull away from the earth absent that force. But with a solid loop structure around the earth, the object is NOT in orbit of the earth, it is merely in free drift above the earth. The earth's gravity acts on all points equally (assuming it is constructed such that all points are equidistant from the earth's surface), which means the radial force felt by the object has no effect on the tangential speed whatsoever. The object would eventually drift into the earth and break apart.

 

[Kulindahr]

Wouldn't the (hula) hoop be subject to induced currents? We could call it the Ring of Lightning.

Ooh -- yes, it could.

Now, where do we discharge that lightning? Maybe, send it down to the planet?

Or we could have frequent sections built of carbon and glass.

 

[Kulindahr]

Nope, that doesn't work like I said. When an object is in orbit, that is what maintains the tension because it turns the object while maintaining the tangential speed, i.e the tendency of the orbiting object to pull away from the earth absent that force. But with a solid loop structure around the earth, the object is NOT in orbit of the earth, it is merely in free drift above the earth. The earth's gravity acts on all points equally (assuming it is constructed such that all points are equidistant from the earth's surface), which means the radial force felt by the object has no effect on the tangential speed whatsoever. The object would eventually drift into the earth and break apart.

Are you trying to say that the construction of a geosynch level ring connecting the cables will cancel the ballasts holding them in tension? I don't buy that.

 

[hotatlboi]

Are you trying to say that the construction of a geosynch level ring connecting the cables will cancel the ballasts holding them in tension? I don't buy that.

Imparting a tangential force in the middle of the cable is a terrible idea.

Again, you have to understand why a rigid circular structure is not in orbit before you can understand why the tension breaks.

This thread explains it better: Gravity effects on a solid rigid ring around earth

Also you can look up Larry Niven's concept of "Ringworld" and why that doesn't work, there's a lot of literature on that.

 

[hotatlboi]

^ One additional note, the solution Niven proposed was an active stabilization system of thrusters mounted on the ring to keep it in the proper position. For an advanced enough civilization, something like that might work. My main point was that centripetal acceleration does not maintain the tension on such a structure since it is not in orbit.

 

[Kulindahr]

^ One additional note, the solution Niven proposed was an active stabilization system of thrusters mounted on the ring to keep it in the proper position. For an advanced enough civilization, something like that might work. My main point was that centripetal acceleration does not maintain the tension on such a structure since it is not in orbit.

I wonder if you ran orbital cables at an angle, like trusses.....

 

[JB3]

Says it all.

 

[bankside]

View attachment 842531

Says it all.

I saw that the other day and had a chuckle. Thought it was brave of him to say.

On one hand, I hope that's a wake-up call for your country to get over its anti-scientific populist mysticism.

On the other hand, I don't care that the Higgs Boson wasn't discovered in the United States.

It was discovered. That's the important part.

 

[JB3]

I saw that the other day and had a chuckle. Thought it was brave of him to say.

On one hand, I hope that's a wake-up call for your country to get over its anti-scientific populist mysticism.

On the other hand, I don't care that the Higgs Boson wasn't discovered in the United States.

It was discovered. That's the important part.

It's more of a broadside over the fact that the only US particle accelerator, the Tevatron, was shut down in 2011 and there is no prospect of a serious particle physics effort in the US for some time to come. Tyson would agree that what's important is that it was discovered; at the same time, he would no doubt be agitated (as you can see) that the US is falling further and further behind in serious scientific efforts.

 

[bankside]

It's more of a broadside over the fact that the only US particle accelerator, the Tevatron, was shut down in 2011 and there is no prospect of a serious particle physics effort in the US for some time to come. Tyson would agree that what's important is that it was discovered; at the same time, he would no doubt be agitated (as you can see) that the US is falling further and further behind in serious scientific efforts.

I know, and that's where I'm of two minds.

On one hand, I'm glad it stirs him to push for greater participation, because that will advance the science that gets done. But on the other hand I almost have to say "get used to it." There's nothing in the stars that says these discoveries ought to be made in any particular country.

 

[hotatlboi]

It's more of a broadside over the fact that the only US particle accelerator, the Tevatron, was shut down in 2011 and there is no prospect of a serious particle physics effort in the US for some time to come. Tyson would agree that what's important is that it was discovered; at the same time, he would no doubt be agitated (as you can see) that the US is falling further and further behind in serious scientific efforts.

Well it's hard when one of our two ruling parties has come to almost totally abhor science.

 

[JB3]

Well it's hard when one of our two ruling parties has come to almost totally abhor science.

This goes back much further than our current predicament. The Desertron in Texas was supposed to take over for Fermilab, but the project was killed in 1993 since the government apparently couldn't stomach spending a few billion on very important scientific work. Fermilab has also had its funding cut, and right now they are pushing hard for the government to authorize a major renovation (Project X) of their collider that will get the US back on track when it comes to particle physics projects.

 

[JB3]

I know, and that's where I'm of two minds.

On one hand, I'm glad it stirs him to push for greater participation, because that will advance the science that gets done. But on the other hand I almost have to say "get used to it." There's nothing in the stars that says these discoveries ought to be made in any particular country.

Well, to that I would say you have to look at the history of modern particle physics. The LHC would not have even existed if the Super-conducting supercollider was actually built in Texas instead of being canned by the US government. So Tyson (and many of those other physicists) are still bitter over the state of high-level facilities like this. They're also probably a little agitated because the SSC would have provided a much more powerful facility than the LHC, which directly impacts their profession.

 

[hotatlboi]

This goes back much further than our current predicament. The Desertron in Texas was supposed to take over for Fermilab, but the project was killed in 1993 since the government apparently couldn't stomach spending a few billion on very important scientific work. Fermilab has also had its funding cut, and right now they are pushing hard for the government to authorize a major renovation (Project X) of their collider that will get the US back on track when it comes to particle physics projects.

ProjectX is a low energy linear accelerator though. Not even close to the class of the LHC.

 

[bankside]

The disappointment is that the US collider was to be three times more powerful than the LHC, making physics easier.

The US is certainly a major player in European physics experiments, as are India, China, and Japan. It's not as if the location makes any bit of difference, other than lost income for local economies. Physics today is truly global and unifying. You might hear 20 different languages in the cafeteria at CERN.

Physics is global, and you might even say (dr. evil pause) grand... unifying....

But I don't think NDT was just concerned about the capabilities of the facility in question...i think it's fairly clear he was trying stir the sentiment that "It should have been us!" Well, a), no.... and b) as you point out, in part, it was "us" given the international nature of such a project.

Well, to that I would say you have to look at the history of modern particle physics. The LHC would not have even existed if the Super-conducting supercollider was actually built in Texas instead of being canned by the US government. So Tyson (and many of those other physicists) are still bitter over the state of high-level facilities like this. They're also probably a little agitated because the SSC would have provided a much more powerful facility than the LHC, which directly impacts their profession.

Yes, well the LHC was built and SCS wasn't finished. It's hard to fault CERN for failing to go bigger when, apparently, neither could anyone else. I'm sure the Glorious Saparmurat Niyazov Collider of Turkmenistan was supposed to be 1000 times more powerful. And I don't see the point in lamenting LHCs capabilities when it actually delivered the goods. And looking at the history of modern particle physics, the SCS could never have been planned without previous facilities in europe and japan and so forth.

So whose achievement is it anyway? Higgs the Brit? Apparently he had help from a couple of Belgians and a couple of Americans and some other Brits. I'm happy to score this one for humanity.

 

[Jack Springer]

Bottom line ... they want more money for search.

 

[JB3]

Physics is global, and you might even say (dr. evil pause) grand... unifying....

But I don't think NDT was just concerned about the capabilities of the facility in question...i think it's fairly clear he was trying stir the sentiment that "It should have been us!" Well, a), no.... and b) as you point out, in part, it was "us" given the international nature of such a project.



Yes, well the LHC was built and SCS wasn't finished. It's hard to fault CERN for failing to go bigger when, apparently, neither could anyone else. I'm sure the Glorious Saparmurat Niyazov Collider of Turkmenistan was supposed to be 1000 times more powerful. And I don't see the point in lamenting LHCs capabilities when it actually delivered the goods. And looking at the history of modern particle physics, the SCS could never have been planned without previous facilities in europe and japan and so forth.

So whose achievement is it anyway? Higgs the Brit? Apparently he had help from a couple of Belgians and a couple of Americans and some other Brits. I'm happy to score this one for humanity.

You're missing the point, which has been spelled out very clearly. They aren't pissed because the boson was found, they're pissed because the US has abandoned their role as a leader in scientific research.

 

[JB3]

ProjectX is a low energy linear accelerator though. Not even close to the class of the LHC.

Didn't say it was. But it would be the return of a facility like this to the US, which is important.

 

[JB3]

Bottom line ... they want more money for search.

And? What's your point, besides being a smartass?

Frankly, I'd rather spend $100 billion on bringing online new scientific facilities in the US than on asinine GOP pet projects.

 

[bankside]

You're missing the point, which has been spelled out very clearly. They aren't pissed because the boson was found, they're pissed because the US has abandoned their role as a leader in scientific research.

My point, which I've spelt out a dozen ways, is that feeling pissy about this discovery happening outside the US is predicated on the idea that for some reason the US is supposed to be a leader in scientific research. And they haven't abandoned that role, they've been outdone. Lapped. At nearly the speed of light.