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If prop 8 passes...

The problem isn't gays "polluting something sacred".

It's bigots who believe that asking for marriage is "polluting something sacred".

It's bigots like you who don't even have enough respect for your fellow Americans to listen to them, to learn about the truth, but carry on on your own insulting, selfish path, that are the problem.

You're not interested in rights -- you're interested in grinding someone else's dignity into the ground!
 
It's bigots like you who don't even have enough respect for your fellow Americans to listen to them, to learn about the truth, but carry on on your own insulting, selfish path, that are the problem.

You're not interested in rights -- you're interested in grinding someone else's dignity into the ground!

Let's hear some more about gays polluting something sacred.
 
Wake up, Spense: a huge amount of homophobia and homo-hatred is fueled and fanned by the "in your face!" types. Even twenty years ago, most Americans were willing to let gays have relationships with the same legal benefits and privileges as heterosexual marriage. Instead of seeking a course of peace, the gay community has pursued one of confrontation flavored with disrespect and insult.

Sad, but true.

It would have been so much better for gay groups to have lobbied for relief from the IRS. Someone in another thread mentioned that the IRS controls joint tax returns, or words to that effect. All the IRS does is enforce the laws created by congress. All it would take is for a change in the tax code allowing any two people to file a joint return, call it what you will. That, and survivor benefits from Social Security would have solved much of the disparity.

The "in your face" crowd has created such an atmosphere of disgust and distrust, that it may be another generation before any meaningful progress can be accomplished.

The MTV generation, whose collective attention span is roughly 45 seconds, wants instant gratification.

This whole marriage thing is a perfect example of the abuses of the few having penalized the many.
 
^ Your assumption is that religious crazies and not so crazies and homophobic bigots would not have opposed gay civil rights and discrimination protections, if gay activists hadn't caused such a fuss.

That sounds like nonsense because it is nonsense.
 
^ Your assumption is that religious crazies and not so crazies and homophobic bigots would not have opposed gay civil rights and discrimination protections, if gay activists hadn't caused such a fuss.

That sounds like nonsense because it is nonsense.

If couched as a legal suit against the IRS, far fewer of them would have been so fanatic in opposition -- especially since a lot of them think the IRS is unconstitutional.

No one's saying that there still wouldn't have been fanatics in opposition, but there wouldn't have been nearly as many if people hadn't tried to make their gayness such a sniff-my-crotch-and-like-it things.

Have you ever bothered to join in with some of these 'evangelicals' and learn how they think, how they react, what makes them tick?
 
^ More than you think.

I just don't share your outdated and homophobic mindset that they have something sacred that gays are polluting.

Obviously, in any civil rights struggles, some extremism is counterproductive. But some is also an understandable and necessary part of the struggle.
 
It also helps in any struggle to actually read.

Your above post demonstrates that you're very bad at it.

That just convinces me that you actually don't grasp what 'evangelicals' think; if you can't read what's plainly in front of you on a screen, you're not gonna get what you hear, either.


You and too many others here at JUB are like Bush and Cheney: you'd rather invade and attack than try being diplomatic.
 
Kulindahr,

It seems like you believe that the bigotry and discrimination of homosexuals is the fault of homosexuals because of their demands for equal rights, which implies that no bigotry existed until a movement for equal rights was started, which, was started as a fight against bigotry. The cause of the bigotry was the fight against it? Your logic is circular, and therefore flawed, and again, you don't get equal rights without bringing it straight into someone's face. You don't think that people apposing black rights felt that they were being invaded upon by the same in your face activists. The victims are not those that discriminate, it's those discriminated against. People of religion are not victims of invading homosexuals, they are the instigators.
 
What would happen if we, GAYS and friend's of GAYS refused to acknowledge hetro marriages? We would go to our parents, grandparents and friends and say, "I don't accept your marriage! All marriages are no longer valid and accepted. Everyone is now considered lovers."
If all of those who believe in Human Rights for All declared a peaceful denial of marriage of all people, would that make them understand what this is about? I strongly believe that this should not be about politics but about that special love and need that everyone deserves and the recognition too. Especially in this hard and rude world...
Just a thought from Canada...
 
It also helps in any struggle to actually read.

Your above post demonstrates that you're very bad at it.

That just convinces me that you actually don't grasp what 'evangelicals' think; if you can't read what's plainly in front of you on a screen, you're not gonna get what you hear, either.


You and too many others here at JUB are like Bush and Cheney: you'd rather invade and attack than try being diplomatic.

It goes without saying that the only person here, who can read, is you, especially when you can't defend what you've written.

I'm not suggesting treating anyone with disrespect, especially if it's counterproductive. But one side doesn't have more of a prior call on respect than the other.

Diplomacy isn't inconsistent with attacking when you have to. "War is diplomacy by another means ."
 
You and too many others here at JUB are like Bush and Cheney: you'd rather invade and attack than try being diplomatic.

It's interesting that you appose gay marriage because of how sacred marriage is to religion. Don't you understand that it is just as sacred to people who aren't religious? Marriage is as just a grand a practice to same sex couples as to opposite sex couples. Is marriage only meant for the religious because they've had it longer, or because they feel it is sacred? And why does that mean that others can't have it too, because I guarantee you, the practice of marriage between gays is probably more sacred to them than it is to the religious, because of how much more unique and, excluding a few discriminatory-free months in California, difficult it is to obtain. That actually makes gays more deserving of marriage than heterosexuals, according to your logic.
 
Kulindahr,

It seems like you believe that the bigotry and discrimination of homosexuals is the fault of homosexuals because of their demands for equal rights, which implies that no bigotry existed until a movement for equal rights was started, which, was started as a fight against bigotry. The cause of the bigotry was the fight against it? Your logic is circular, and therefore flawed, and again, you don't get equal rights without bringing it straight into someone's face. You don't think that people apposing black rights felt that they were being invaded upon by the same in your face activists. The victims are not those that discriminate, it's those discriminated against. People of religion are not victims of invading homosexuals, they are the instigators.

My post to Spense, right above yours, applies to you nicely, too.

You're engaging in good victim thinking, believing that because someone resents you, anything you do that makes the problem worse is still their fault. Plus you're making no effort to grasp the big picture, or to understand where those who are offended at your actions are coming from. You show no respect at all for those who are your 'foes' -- and in so doing, you deserve no victory.

You're like the guy who wants to get to the bathroom, and instead of taking off his muddy boots and walking around through the kitchen, stomps, muddy boots and all, through the living room, sneering at the people gasping at your rudeness.


Maybe you're just another victim of today's pubic schools; either way, like others here, your ability to read with comprehension is poor: you can't differ between a distinction and a difference, and you can't keep from turning any statement into a broad generalization.




I'll try once more, here.
Your approach to gaining the benefits and privileges bestowed on "marriage" is like someone saying, "I want to sit down", but isn't satisfied just to take a seat, but has to wipe your feet on the chair that was there before you, and kick it to the side and pull up your seat, which is made bigger and wider than the existing one.

Showing a little more respect will get you more.
 
My post to Spense, right above yours, applies to you nicely, too.

You're engaging in good victim thinking, believing that because someone resents you, anything you do that makes the problem worse is still their fault. Plus you're making no effort to grasp the big picture, or to understand where those who are offended at your actions are coming from. You show no respect at all for those who are your 'foes' -- and in so doing, you deserve no victory.

You're like the guy who wants to get to the bathroom, and instead of taking off his muddy boots and walking around through the kitchen, stomps, muddy boots and all, through the living room, sneering at the people gasping at your rudeness.


Maybe you're just another victim of today's pubic schools; either way, like others here, your ability to read with comprehension is poor: you can't differ between a distinction and a difference, and you can't keep from turning any statement into a broad generalization.




I'll try once more, here.
Your approach to gaining the benefits and privileges bestowed on "marriage" is like someone saying, "I want to sit down", but isn't satisfied just to take a seat, but has to wipe your feet on the chair that was there before you, and kick it to the side and pull up your seat, which is made bigger and wider than the existing one.

Showing a little more respect will get you more.

Why do you feel that the act of two people of the same sex getting married is an intentional, deliberate, and direct act of hatred and corruption against religion? Do you honestly believe that is the intention of gay people when they marry? Gay marriage is not about spiting the religious, or "walking around someone's house with muddy boots". Those are merely the paranoid delusions of a people so devoted to a ancient text that it clouds their every judgment and hinders their every thought.
 
It's interesting that you appose gay marriage because of how sacred marriage is to religion. Don't you understand that it is just as sacred to people who aren't religious? Marriage is as just a grand a practice to same sex couples as to opposite sex couples. Is marriage only meant for the religious because they've had it longer, or because they feel it is sacred? And why does that mean that others can't have it too, because I guarantee you, the practice of marriage between gays is probably more sacred to them than it is to the religious, because of how much more unique and, excluding a few discriminatory-free months in California, difficult it is to obtain. That actually makes gays more deserving of marriage than heterosexuals, according to your logic.

"Deserving"?

I'm not talking about "deserving", except insofar as every person involved in this -- which means all Americans -- is deserving of respect.



We have this document called the Constitution. In it there's a little piece that says that Congress shall make no law about establishing religion, or prohibiting its free exercise.

Now, we have written into federal law a definition of marriage that is clearly religious in nature.

Consider those items: totally apart from even the existence of gays, there are laws in effect which are so, contrary to the Constitution. That's an item in need of correction, even if everyone in the country belonged to a religion which accepted that definition; the fact that everyone believes in what's being established does not negate the fact that it is established.

Now along come gays, and they want the same benefits and privileges granted to other people under this unconstitutional system. Very quickly we discover who the oppressors in the scenario are: they scream against this inclusion, not on the basis of it being in law, but on the basis of religion. This reveals also that the law is based on religion, because they point to it as being in accordance with divine will.

At this point gays could do two things: one would be to take a step back, realize that their use of this word which is so precious to so many other people might not be well advised, and look for a path which will grant to the oppressors the same respect they seek for themselves; the other would be to say "Fuck them!", and proceed on a path that couldn't be better calculated to insult, offend, antagonize, and incense.

Gays have chosen the second path with astounding regularity, and thus only made things worth. Even before this election, polls showed that a majority of Americans believe two things pertinent to this struggle: that marriage is sacred/religious, and that gays are due the same benefits and privileges that others are getting now.

That first belief takes us back to the original item that the law is religiously based and thus establishing religion. They don't realize that their position really means that all the benefits and privileges ought to be stripped from the law -- unless....

Unless the second belief directly above is integrated into the law, replacing the religious word with something else. Suddenly there would be no constitutional issue, and all would be well.

Almost -- the new definition would have to include any definition of this sort of human bonding that any others might have, too; otherwise, it's just the same situation as before, only modified to have a new group added to the oppressors.


Now to a personal level:

There are indeed already churches and organizations which will perform marriage ceremonies for gays. Were the situation resolved as I describe, they could continue to do so -- as other churches could continue to refuse to do so. But the difference would be that none would require government approval to do so, because all marriage ceremonies of any kind, along with all unions, joinings, handfasting, commitments, or whatever, would be of no importance to the government at all except in this: the people would tell the government that they had a valid union, rather than the government telling the people.

That's the way it ought to be. It's also where the other constitutional aspect comes in: freedom of association. Under that, too, the present system is unconstitutional, because it denies a specific sort of association to some people, but not to others.



BTW, you're misreading again, mixing things that are distinct. To say that I "oppose gay marriage" means I oppose the movement to get something called "gay marriage" written into the law. I oppose that because it is just a move to alter what sort of oppression we have, rather than a move toward liberty. It has nothing to do with religion.

Where religion comes in is that the current system is unconstitutional due to religion, and that trying to take away from the religious (their view of it) what is sacred (again, their view) is stupidity both tactically and strategically. Strategically, it's far better to work to get the religious definition and word out of the law, replace it with a neutral one.
 
Why do you feel that the act of two people of the same sex getting married is an intentional, deliberate, and direct act of hatred and corruption against religion? Do you honestly believe that is the intention of gay people when they marry? Gay marriage is not about spiting the religious, or "walking around someone's house with muddy boots". Those are merely the paranoid delusions of a people so devoted to a ancient text that it clouds their every judgment and hinders their every thought.

Huh?
You change the subject....

I'm not talking about two people getting married -- haven't talked about it at all.
We're talking about "gay marriage" as a political issue, as something to get enthroned in law -- that's evident from the thread title.

It's the act of knowingly demanding that the same word be used, under the law, that is an intentional, deliberate and direct action of hatred -- not against religion, but against people... you know, human beings like us.

The utter disrespect you have for your fellow Americans tells me you're not likely to care, though. Nevertheless, at least some gays ought to be aware of what a deep and personal assault it is on the core of people's beings to quite unnecessarily demand that they have to share something deeply sacred to them with filthy beasts.

I can't see why you don't grasp what the gay marriage campaign is to them personally. Is it that there isn't anything really important to you, that is like part of your being? Is it that you lack empathy and just see them as stick figures who don't really hurt or really feel anything?

Asking to write "gay marriage" unto the law is disrespectful at best -- and as such is bad strategy (even if there weren't other reasons). Most Americans feel we should also have all the benefits and privileges written into the law, for our unions -- which would make it seem an easy affair to get taken care of. But when we demand "marriage", the tables are turned, as the voting recently showed.

That switch should be telling us something, even if the reality that adding "gay marriage" to the existing definition wasn't just a matter of altering the form of oppression, not ending it, doesn't.
 
It's the act of knowingly demanding that the same word be used, under the law, that is an intentional, deliberate and direct action of hatred -- not against religion, but against people... you know, human beings like us.

I believe it was the religious who put marriage into the laws in the first place. The act of hatred, as you put it, by introducing the word "marriage" into the law was done by the very people you claim it disrespects. And, knowing full well that laws change, should have easily anticipated those who would want to share in the institution, because, even though it may be "their" institution, it was made "everyone's" law. When marriage was made law, it immediately ceased to be a religious institution and became a governmental one, and, as such, was open to scrutiny and change by everyone that law encompasses, i.e. every single US citizen. You can not say that gay people trying to change a governmental institution is insulting a religious one, because they are simply not the same anymore. Government defined marriage and religious defined marriage are two completely separate entities, and gay marriage is about changing the governmental institution of marriage, not the religious institution of marriage, something that every US citizen has the right to do.
 
No, when it was made law, it became a case of the establishment of religion. So their definition, and the word that came with it, just need to be thrown out of the law, and let them be... separate but equal?
Not really; they'd get to do marriage in their churches, but to the government they'd have a civil union like everyone else.
 
No, when it was made law, it became a case of the establishment of religion. So their definition, and the word that came with it, just need to be thrown out of the law, and let them be... separate but equal?
Not really; they'd get to do marriage in their churches, but to the government they'd have a civil union like everyone else.

It's a wonderful view of a Utopian society, but merely a fantasy. You won't get marriage replaced by civil unions, mostly because the people that hold marriage so sacred WANT it to be law. You try to take marriage out of law, and every religious individual in this country would vote to overturn such a proposition. Equal marriage for all is as close to your Utopian "equal civil union for all" as we can ever hope to get. You can thank people of religion for that.
 
It's a wonderful view of a Utopian society, but merely a fantasy. You won't get marriage replaced by civil unions, mostly because the people that hold marriage so sacred WANT it to be law. You try to take marriage out of law, and every religious individual in this country would vote to overturn such a proposition. Equal marriage for all is as close to your Utopian "equal civil union for all" as we can ever hope to get. You can thank people of religion for that.

Unfortunately, there aren't very many gays interested in fighting for "equal marriage for all".

I still think my proposal could be gotten through Congress with Obama, next year, and made to work. "Gay marriage", besides being discriminatory itself, won't get through Congress before you retire.
 
^ Well we're still more likely to see gay marriage before we see anyone doing anything much about your "proposal".

The only person playing victim here is you, advocating appeasement rather than mutual respect.

A beaten wife also thinks she's defined by her abusive husband and that his view of the world, claims and assertions rank in priority to hers. They don't.

 
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