Impressions from attending a mosque for the first time

[Kulindahr]

If heat hens = hens that are "in heat," I'm sure that hundreds of them are killed in Kansas every day.

There's a certain lack of heat in Kansas at this time of year.

 

[DonQuixote]

Kuli,
You've never heard of Freezer BURN?

 

[Kulindahr]

Kuli,
You've never heard of Freezer BURN?

LOL

Still at the other end of the temperature system.

 

[pat grimshaw]

There's a certain lack of heat in Kansas ..

But there is a willing slave to Allah

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Are there mosques?

Have you attended one?

 

[LilBit]

The Westbrough Loonies don't actually KILL Heathens.

The Westbrough Loonies don't kill their children for going to school or fornicating with Non-Christians.

The Westbrough Loonies haven't formed cells in four continents of the world to convert and subvert the pagan nations.

And the same is true for the vast majority of Muslims.

 

[pat grimshaw]

.. vast majority of Muslims.

And that majority is vast.

In Europe it's vast and growing by the minute. The demographics are changing daily.

But I do think I'm wasting my time talking to well-meaning Pollyannas who live in the very nice middle-class parts of a country with very strong border controls.

You will change your mind after you have bashed.

 

[LilBit]

^But Thelma's not here to defend her point. She's here to deflect until nobody knows what the hell we're talking about anymore.

 

[rareboy]

^ Nailed it.

Between his obsession with tattoos, scat and Islam...it must keep him bizzy as a little bee on the Interwebz.

 

[Kulindahr]

And that majority is vast.

In Europe it's vast and growing by the minute. The demographics are changing daily.

But I do think I'm wasting my time talking to well-meaning Pollyannas who live in the very nice middle-class parts of a country with very strong border controls.

You will change your mind after you have bashed.

You're saying that Muslims in Europe are becoming more moderate by the day? That's an interesting claim -- do you have anything to support it?

 

[pat grimshaw]

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance.

If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

In this formulation, [he does] not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols [or bombs, as in Boston].

We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law [of the host country], and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

 

[LilBit]

^What a beautiful example of a straw man argument. Well done, Lillian!

 

[KaraBulut]

Your portrayal of Muslims as turbaned Arabic Nazis just doesn't comport with actual Islam. They may not regard women or infidels as equals, but every culture in the world is a mix and none have got it all right. You choose to write them down as inferior -- I don't -- hence my thread.

Your point is valid with one caveat. There are over 1 billion Muslims. The attitudes toward women and "infidels" has more to do with where they live and less to do with anything in their religion. When anyone tries to generalize a population that large based upon a few people, it's bound to end up with inaccuracy and over-simplification.

Unless you've traveled or lived abroad, it's very difficult to set aside cultural blindness and understand that these are very diverse populations of people.

There are over 2 billion Christians. Most people who live in predominantly Christian countries know very little about the divisions between their own religion beyond the big categories like Roman Catholic vs Protestant. Most don't know that there's more than one "Catholic" church (or that Pope Francis isn't the pontif for all Catholics). Most can't explain the difference between Unitarians and Catholics. And they're quick to dismiss the homophobia, misogyny and bigotry of some Christians as just being just a few extremists.

And somehow, everyone forgets that in most of Europe and in the US, women were not considered equal citizens until the 20th century.

Any American can walk a short distance into a Christian Church and they'll hear all sorts of made up shit that isn't in the Bible. And a quick trip to YouTube will find leaders of the Mormons, Orthodox Judaism, the Roman Catholic church and the Episcopalian Church talking about how homosexuality is a sin, the subservience of women and excuses about how things like bombing abortion clinics is justified. Why wouldn't Islam have its own group of crazies like the rest?

Since most of the people responding in this thread haven't been in a mosque, there's only two consistencies in any mosque- there's no place to sit and the place usually smells like sweaty feet. Other than that, there's little consistency- just like in most Christian churches.

 

[Telstra]

"there's only two consistencies in any mosque- there's no place to sit "

I like the idea of no place to sit.
Squatting and sitting helps with your buttocks muscle.

 

[KaraBulut]

I don't think it a stretch to take Islam or Christianity as institutionally not viewing women as equals. Of course there are variants that do not see it thus for both religions. But, in my mosque visit, it was a prominent feature that women were not only not welcome in the room where the Imam held forth, they were not welcome to socialize with the men who lingered long afterward.

Can you name anywhere that women are considered equals?

Segregation in places of worship is actually quite common. In Orthodox Judaism, women weren't allowed in the interior areas of the temple where the men worshpiped. Mormons have areas that are segregated in their churches. And in countries like the Philippines, it's common to see men on one side of the church and women on the other.

If you read some of the early Christian writings, men and women did worship together, however many of the early congregations like the Corinthian church encouraged celibacy. Several early Christian sects discouraged marriage and other relationships between the sexes and Paul's writings to the early church encouraged celibacy.

"there's only two consistencies in any mosque- there's no place to sit "

I like the idea of no place to sit.
Squatting and sitting helps with your buttocks muscle.

Well, in a mosque you stand until prayers begin. Prayers are done while kneeling on the floor in the same way that priests and monks pray.

 

[KaraBulut]

Actually, I noticed tonight in looking over my Presbyterian church's directory that women outnumber men 2:1 in both the session classes and the deaconate and the committees. The church membership is not so skewed, only the leadership. Obviously, the Presbyterian Church USA is extremely feminist.[/image]

Out of curiosity, what is the average age of the members of your church?




To the contrary, they were seated all over the room when I arrived and as men arrived, for the first 45 minutes of the hour-long service, they stood, began praying, and knelt. Collective prayers were at the very end of the service.

Are you referring to the (apparently) beginning stance required when an individual begins his prayer preparation?

It usually looks like this for prayers:

*note the bare feet

 

[KaraBulut]

It only looked like that after the Imam spoke for 45 mins., then called them to prayer. Was that "sermon" prologue?

They were seated for the whole time before the prayer.

The chairs are a more western adaptation. Some mosques may have a section for the handicapped or chairs for elderly men who are infirm. The bigger touristy mosques may have a seating area on the side for observers. There are some mosques in Europe and the US that have added classrooms and a few will have plastic chairs that they bring out for meetings and study groups.

The norm is to sit on the floor for the sermon.

Devout Muslims pray five times per day, so there are often smaller groups that are praying at various times. For the daily prayer, it's not necessary to go to the mosque. In Muslim countries, a call to prayer is broadcast from mosques at the five times per day (much like church bells in Christian churches). Those nearby may go to the mosque- most pray at home or work.

The prayer with the sermon is usually the Friday evening service (Jum'ah). Like Orthodox Jews, Muslims have their service on Friday. Most people attend in the evening after work. There's a washing ritual, shoes are removed and everyone gathers in the main room. In smaller towns, men discuss local events, sports, etc. Some pray or read the Qur'an. The service then begins. The imam gives a brief sermon- a combination of news, thoughts and readings- much like a Christian homily. There's a short break. The imam then does a short ritual prayer (usually in arabic although some western countries do it in english)- it starts with "All praise is due to God...".

The imam then does a call to prayer and then the group bows in the kneeling position and recites a group prayer.

The Friday prayer is very much like similar services in Judaism or Catholicism. From a young age, children are expected to memorize the various prayers and recite them (much like Hebrew school or Confraternity of Christian Doctrine in Catholicism).

There's a video here that shows the usual drill for Jum'ah:
http://www.howcast.com/videos/217206-How-To-Attend-a-Muslim-Friday-Prayer-Service-Jumah

 

[Telstra]

These sitting down pics,
they should be listening to Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris instead ...

 

[Telstra]

Did you tell them you are into men ??