Interesting colonial map - I never knew the extent of French territiory in North America (c. 1750)

[Alnitak]

I'm not one to obsess....I leave that to others, but it was the English settlerframers of the United States Constitution who drew their inspiration from The Magna Carta, when speaking to the freedoms that were granted by King John...

Actually, not a single freedom found in the Magna Carta appears in the US Constitution as written in 1787, however due process does appear in the Bill of Rights. The Magna Carta mostly dealt with limiting the powers of the crown and church, both of which are obviously absent from the US Constitution. Therefore, any connection is tenuous at best.

The US Constitution draws all of its inspiration from the European Enlightenment, which took place centuries after the reign of King John. The structure of our government isn't even English, rather it derives from the French philosopher Montesquieu and the Roman Constitution of balanced powers. In fact, as far as I know, the US is the first nation with our form of government.

with that other fine English (born, and raised) radical, Thomas Paine not arriving in the colonies until he was 37 years of age, who also drew his inspiration from The Magna Carta and contributing so much to the struggle for the independence of the New England colonies....but, of course you already knew that.

Actually, the main idea in the Declaration of Independence that government should derive from the 'consent of the governed' was not in the Magna Carta either, but it was English.

 

[kallipolis]

There is no doubt that The Magna Carta inspired the framers of the United States Constitution.

I quote:

[I]he 1765 Stamp Act extended the stamp duty, which had been in force on home territory since 1694 to cover the American colonies as well. However, colonists of the Thirteen Colonies despised this since they were not represented in Parliament and refused to accept that an external body, which did not represent them, could tax them in what they saw was a denial of their rights as Englishmen. The cry "no taxation without representation" rang throughout the colonies.

The influence of Magna Carta can be clearly seen in the United States Bill of Rights, which enumerates various rights of the people and restrictions on government power, such as:

No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

Article 21 from the Declaration of Rights in the Maryland Constitution of 1776 reads:

That no freeman ought to be taken, or imprisoned, or disseized of his freehold, liberties, or privileges, or outlawed, or exiled, or in any manner destroyed, or deprived of his life, liberty, or property, but by the judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land.

The Ninth Amendment to the United States Constitution states that, “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” The framers of the United States Constitution wished to ensure that rights they already held, such as those provided by the Magna Carta, were not lost unless explicitly curtailed in the new United States Constitution. [/I]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta...

 

[Alnitak]

The influence of Magna Carta can be clearly seen in the United States Bill of Rights, which enumerates various rights of the people and restrictions on government power, such as:

No person shall be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

Thanks, but, I just mentioned that in the previous post.

Actually, not a single freedom found in the Magna Carta appears in the US Constitution as written in 1787, however due process does appear in the Bill of Rights.

The Constitution was ratified in 1788. The Bill of Rights was added in 1790 as an afterthought.

 

[kallipolis]

I neglected to mention that during the Revolutionary War, New York State, and city remained the most loyal of British colonies with the British Army only withdrawing from NY state immediately after the signing of The Treaty of Paris, 1783.

Knowing Palemale's ethnic background I would have imagined him placing Irish influence in New York City ahead of Dutch influence.

 

[kallipolis]

Thanks, but, I just mentioned that in the previous post.



The Constitution was ratified in 1788. The Bill of Rights was added in 1790 as an afterthought.

The drafting was inspired by The Magna Carta.

The English colonists did not stop drawing on their cultural, and historical heritage simply because of their war with the British Government.

 

[opinterph]

I quote:

Can you share a source for the first portion of text you quoted?

 

[Alnitak]

I neglected to mention that during the Revolutionary War, New York State, and city remained the most loyal of British colonies with the British Army only withdrawing from NY state immediately after the signing of The Treaty of Paris, 1783.

Knowing Palemale's ethnic background I would have imagined him placing Irish influence in New York City ahead of Dutch influence.

The patriots fled New York in 1776 and the occupying army at one point outnumbered the city's residents.

 

[Alnitak]

The drafting was inspired by The Magna Carta.

The English colonists did not stop drawing on their cultural, and historical heritage simply because of their war with the British Government.

English equity was and still is the only legal continuity. The framers did indeed neuter the English Constitution with the American one.

There is nothing in the Magna Carta to draw inspiration from other than waiving a big middle finger to the king. It does not propose a revolutionary form of government, democracy, equality, or balanced powers. All of those things were pan-European enlightenment values of the 17th and 18th centuries. The 5th Amendment to the US Constitution is the only verifiable connection to that medieval document.

 

[kallipolis]

Can you share a source for the first portion of text you quoted?

The convenient reference is the Wikipedia article...what specifically draws your attention?

 

[kallipolis]

English equity was and still is the only legal continuity. The framers did indeed neuter the English Constitution with the American one.

There is nothing in the Magna Carta to draw inspiration from other than waiving a big middle finger to the king. It does not propose a revolutionary form of government, democracy, equality, or balanced powers. All of those things were pan-European enlightenment values of the 17th and 18th centuries. The 5th Amendment to the US Constitution is the only verifiable connection to that medieval document.

Of course there is for The Magna Carta principle claim to fame is that it obliged the king to share power, with the people finally removing absolute powers from the king's hands....in this sense the New England colonists developed this theme to guarantee that their representation would be entirely in their hands, and not in the UK where they were not represented....this appears elementary to me....why not to you?

 

[Alnitak]

Of course there is for The Magna Carta principle claim to fame is that it obliged the king to share power, with the people finally removing absolute powers from the king's hands....in this sense the New England colonists developed this theme to guarantee that their representation would be entirely in their hands, and not in the UK where they were not represented....this appears elementary to me....why not to you?

Because not only did we believe that the king should relinquish power, we eliminated the concept of a crown completely. Not even Mortimer or DeMontfort's parliament dreamed of such a thing. The English love and respect the crown, regardless of who wears it, still to this day as they did back then, quite unlike the American perspective.

 

[kallipolis]

The patriots fled New York in 1776 and the occupying army at one point outnumbered the city's residents.

That American patriots fled New York made good sense, for it preserved their freedom of movement even, their lives that did not stop the loyalists remain living there....yes, you're correct New York city had a small population in those days, compared to current numbers....and?

Should I remind you that John Adams estimated that the loyalist population of the New England colonies, at the time of revolution was some twenty to thirty percent with many loyalist militias imposing significant losses on the Continental Army...I am sure that you are aware of this.

 

[kallipolis]

Because not only did we believe that the king should relinquish power, we eliminated the concept of a crown completely. Not even Mortimer or DeMontfort's parliament dreamed of such a thing. The English love and respect the crown, regardless of who wears it, still to this day as they did back then, quite unlike the American perspective.

The English colonists were devoted to their democratic ideals, as true English men, and women are today....what else is new?

 

[Alnitak]

That American patriots fled New York made good sense, for it preserved their freedom of movement even, their lives that did not stop the loyalists remain living there....yes, you're New York city had a small population in those days, compared to current numbers....and?

And? Of course New York City turned loyalist when the patriots fled and the British army occupied it.

Should I remind you that John Adams estimated that the loyalist population of the New England colonies, at the time of revolution was some twenty to thirty percent with many loyalist militias imposing significant losses on the Continental Army...I am sure that you are aware of this.

Loyalists were a joke, a thoroughly weak willed and pusillanimous party to the war. The reason that the British lost was due to the character of loyalists, who disappeared as soon as the British regulars left a battle scene, like a fart in the wind. Thus the British could not hold territory outside of major cities and victory was impossible.

 

[Alnitak]

The English colonists were devoted to their democratic ideals, as true English men, and women are today....what else is new?

Which, of course, is not found in the Magna Carta.

Thank you.

 

[kallipolis]

And? Of course New York City turned loyalist when the patriots fled and the British army occupied it.



Loyalists were a joke, a thoroughly weak willed and pusillanimous party to the war. The reason that the British lost was due to the character of loyalists, who disappeared as soon as the British regulars left, like a fart in the wind. Thus the British could not hold territory outside of major cities and victory was impossible.

The British military garrison occupied New York because it was loyalist guaranteeing the troops freedom to do their stuff without fear of counter actions from the revolutionaries.

The reason the British Government lost the war can be squarely laid at the door of France.....

That the war continued for years following York Town is evidence that the loyalists were more than a match for the revolutionaries.

 

[kallipolis]

Which, of course, is not found in the Magna Carta.

Thank you.

The process of democratisation begins somewhere, and for the English speaking peoples of this planet, The Magna Carta is the source of the democratic traditions that have evolved over the centuries.

 

[Alnitak]

The British military garrison occupied New York because it was loyalist guaranteeing the troops freedom to do their stuff without fear of counter actions from the revolutionaries.

Tell that to the patriots on Brooklyn Heights; the largest organization of patriot manpower during the entire war took place there to defend New York City.

The reason the British Government lost the war can be squarely laid at the door of France.....

That the war continued for years following York Town is evidence that the loyalists were more than a match for the revolutionaries.

Actually, the war effectively stopped at Yorktown and there were no more major battles despite a sizable army remaining in New York City. The British public and parliament were sick of the war by 1781 and wanted it over. While France provided a decisive victory in the Chesapeake Bay, that just prevented Cornwallis from returning to New York City. Even if Cornwallis had escaped, the British would not have tried to break out of New York for a third time. Remember the first two invasions of New Jersey and Philadelphia ended in disaster.

 

[Alnitak]

The process of democratisation begins somewhere, and for the English speaking peoples of this planet, The Magna Carta is the source of the democratic traditions that have evolved over the centuries.

The process of English democratization began when MPs were elected at De Montfort's parliament, which took place 50 years after the original Magna Carta.

 

[kallipolis]

Tell that to the patriots on Brooklyn Heights; the largest organization of patriot manpower during the entire war took place there to defend New York City.



Actually, the war effectively stopped at Yorktown and there were no more major battles despite a sizable army remaining in New York City. The British public and parliament were sick of the war by 1781 and wanted it over. While France provided a decisive victory in the Chesapeake Bay, that just prevented Cornwallis from returning to New York City. Even if Cornwallis had escaped, the British would not have tried to break out of New York for a third time. Remember the first two invasions of New Jersey and Philadelphia ended in disaster.

The final chapter in this family dispute was the intervention of France....however, you may characterize particular battles towards the end of the war.

I must eat my evening meal....thanks, for the exchanges.

I am happy you are still focusing on marriage rights for gays....