Is anyone here open to the possibility of voting for the 'opposite' party?

[Benvolio]

Um the fact that many developed countries offer universal health care and free or almost free college education whereas the United States does not? Where is your proof?

American freebees come in a variety of forms from various sources. 15 million live on welafare, including about 6 million blacks, almost as many whites, 2.35 million hispanics. 49 million receive medicaid, older recieve medicare, vetersns benefits, disability, food stamps, affirmative action, employers health plans, subsidized housing, scholarships, emergency room care, etc. it would be hard to prove that other countries provide superior services.

 

[Jack Springer]

Lots of open minded people here.

 

[Benvolio]

Um the fact that many developed countries offer universal health care and free or almost free college education whereas the United States does not? Where is your proof?

Where is your proof?

 

[Benvolio]

And one of the worst health care systems in the developed world. This guy can't even bother bringing up the facts. Very little is offered for free in this country. He cites all these things, yet he can't look at the fact that republicans have been cutting those things for years, especially during the Bush years. Other developed countries do provide superior services... universal health care for one. You haven't proved a thing and haven't provided one iota of proof.

Where is you proof? We have the most advanced health care in the world. We develop the most new drugs, procedures and devices. You believe that the cheapest or most free services are necessarily the best. Free is the only criterion in your mind. Only on that basis could say that ours is worse. For some strange reason you believe that everyone should get the best for free at someone else's expense. And, in fact, most people who cannot afford it do get it for free. 49 million get medicaid.

 

[Benvolio]

Here is a Huffington Post article describing US leadership in medical advancements.Kenneth Thorpe: Medical Advancements: Who Is Leading the World?

The cheapest is not always the best.

 

[TheFireGod]

If this was based on party alone, like if my jurisdiction allowed 1 vote for candidate and 1 for party (like Germany and Japan), I'd say no; I wouldn't vote for the opposing party, the D/R Coalition.

I'll vote according to the candidate's view closest to me no matter which of the many parties represented on that ballot; and not that "lesser of two evils" or "the one I hate least" bullshit that people who only vote for the D/R Monopoly ingrained in their brains.

 

[frankfrank]

And, in fact, most people who cannot afford it do get it for free. 49 million get medicaid.

There is a large group of politicians running (or already in office), who have the wet dream of turning that 49 million number to ZERO. And mark my words (because I believe 2013 will see Romney, and Republican majorities in Congress), I fully expect to see a REPEAL of the Federal Emergency Room law (whatever it's called), which would no longer require ER's to treat the indigent who show up.

I have NEVER yet heard anybody suggest this type of repeal yet, but I strongly believe they have it as an ace-in-the-hold.

That Congressman in Florida (I think it was Grayson...or was he from the opposite viewpoint?) who said that the Republican plan for health care is to

1. Don't get sick - but, if you do get sick,
2. DIE EARLY

...I believe they will do whatever they can to withhold ALL hopes of healthcare from the indigent.

It would take years, but eventually there may be such a thing as hospitals for the indigent, operated by churches or something. Meanwhile, millions of people are likely to needlessly die of things as simple as diarrhea and dysentery - the United States would be no different from parts of sub-Saharan Africa, Afghanistan, etc. What used to be an ethic that promoted charities for the disadvantaged, barely exists anymore.

True, a good part of that may well be because many of the functions have been replaced with government programs, but that doesn't change the fact that the sudden disappearance of THAT social infrastructure would likely result in a horrific death toll in this country before "replacement" stuff could be again up and running.

 

[Sammie13]

Where is you proof? We have the most advanced health care in the world. We develop the most new drugs, procedures and devices. You believe that the cheapest or most free services are necessarily the best. Free is the only criterion in your mind. Only on that basis could say that ours is worse. For some strange reason you believe that everyone should get the best for free at someone else's expense. And, in fact, most people who cannot afford it do get it for free. 49 million get medicaid.

Our health care SYSTEM is bad, but our health care is good. We have some of the best doctors, hospitals and medicines in the world. Our healthcare is expensive certainly. We basically tote the water...do the heavy lifting... for other countries to have such good healthcare. If the US were like France or Canada, the world would not have available so many medicines and science because there would be no one to finance it. In a way, it's good to be us....but, in another way, it sucks to be us. Sucks because we pay the big bills and ultimately set up a system that allows minimal access to quality healthcare for millions of Americans. Perhaps that's the rub, our hc is so pricey, yet our health outcomes are middle of the road...which, I'm sure, is an access/affordability issue. Medicare is pretty good. Medicaid is awful except for OB/GYN. It's a goofy system...a medicaid doctor is reimbursed like $13 to sit and listen to populations that tend to be very sickly (and still take no accountability for their health) and then the patient can only get the cheapest, oldest drugs on the market. At the same time, the patient is buying liquor and cigarettes and never fusses about those prices. On the OB/GYN side, however, a 17 year old pregnant girl is treated like royalty.


I often say US healthcare SYSTEM is like a painting canvas where someone just threw all the colors onto the canvas and then said, 'you go make sense of it." The pieces...govt regulation, insurance greed, govt insurance, medicare, commercial, etc....just don't fit well together. Socialized medicine is not all bad...many parts are good....but they do have death panels and they do have long, long lists to get needed surgeries. Perhaps this hybrid system were going to is not so bad.

I spent 7 nights in a hospital in April (my first ever time in a hospital). I was glad I was in US hands. Sometimes my health care was chaotic...sometimes overly bureaucratic....communications was poor at other times...but I knew I had the best professionals at my service. Of course, the bill came (and continues to come) and I'm up to $100,000 (lucky I had insurance). My out of pocket is around $3000 thus far. Basically, it was my vacation this year. The only appalling incident was when a billing lady wanted me to give her a credit card while I was doped up on morphine and hydrocodone. I was loopy, but smart enough to know I wasn't in a negotiating state of mind. Sad that the money was more important to them than some integrity...left a bad impression.

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

Our health care SYSTEM is bad, but our health care is good. We have some of the best doctors, hospitals and medicines in the world.

True true true. I met with a member of the Saudi Department of the Interior the other day who was in Boston to have surgery. THAT'S saying something. It's a shame the rest of it is such a mess.

 

[TX-Beau]

On the other hand my Grandfather who was a high level Exxon exec with the kind of healthcare most people only dream about got prescribed drugs from one doctor that was incompatible with the drugs prescribed by the specialist.

There are as many horror stories around as there are glowing reports.

 

[mightbe]

Benvolio-

We have excellent medical infrastructure, and part of that is excellent doctors. However, we have a hideous financial system, and an even more horrifying bureaucracy behind it. Efficiency SUCKS. Hospitals are treated too much like a business here. Our system is in need of major revamp.

Medical advances are more distributed now, whereas before, the US was a major forerunner, but now we are a co-runner with Japan and Germany, among others.

 

[Benvolio]

Here is a Huffington Post article describing US leadership in medical advancements.Kenneth Thorpe: Medical Advancements: Who Is Leading the World?

The cheapest is not always the best.

Obviously, CG,you did not read the linked article. And your article about Japan is all efficiency and low cost, not about best.
Remember, investments in research by other countries are made with the expectation of selling into the US market without price controls. The big danger of Obama care is a dramatic slowing of research and development.

 

[Kulindahr]

Medicare is pretty good. Medicaid is awful except for OB/GYN. It's a goofy system...a medicaid doctor is reimbursed like $13 to sit and listen to populations that tend to be very sickly (and still take no accountability for their health) and then the patient can only get the cheapest, oldest drugs on the market. At the same time, the patient is buying liquor and cigarettes and never fusses about those prices.

I have a friend who got on Social Security disability. The paperwork said it came with Medicaid. What the paperwork didn't say was that out of his $440/month SS check, he'd have to pay $268 for that medical coverage.

One more "WTF?" moment.

 

[Sammie13]

I have a friend who got on Social Security disability. The paperwork said it came with Medicaid. What the paperwork didn't say was that out of his $440/month SS check, he'd have to pay $268 for that medical coverage.

One more "WTF?" moment.

Yeah, that shocks alot of people. When they retire and draw social security (esp when they have no other retirement), sizable portions of that small check go to Medicare Parts A, B and D. Retirees find that seemingly there whole paychecks go to hc.

 

[Sammie13]

On the other hand my Grandfather who was a high level Exxon exec with the kind of healthcare most people only dream about got prescribed drugs from one doctor that was incompatible with the drugs prescribed by the specialist.

There are as many horror stories around as there are glowing reports.

I don't think there are that many horror stories; those are just the ones we always hear about. Kinda like crime! And that goes back to the SYSTEM or infra-structure upon which we operate in healthcare. But, it happens...happened a year ago to my grandfather (to this day, I think he's in asst living due mainly to the doctor's mis-prescribing). The problems is many 'specialists' doctors know very little about other disease states and the meds that accompany those diseases. Communication is not always great with every specialist and each patient's primary care physician.

 

[Sammie13]

Japan is also vastly more efficient then the United States, for example. These countries are producing new vaccines and medicines at a faster rate then the United States. These countries also have universal healthcare, which the United States does not have and republicans, like yourself, refuse to endorse.

You didn't read my earlier posts (probably bored you) but again the reason many socialist countries have descent healthcare procedures/medications is due to the profitablity of American healthcare. Again, we are the tent that holds up the entire globe in healthcare. What you don't grasp is that the Japans, Denmarks, Germans, Swiss, etc that are discovering the new scientific marvels in health sciences are doing it upon FUNDING my the profit machine, the United States. Most of a Japanese healthcare firm's profit/revenue comes from America. When we slow down US healthcare profits, we slow down Japan, etc in R&D (and not just slow down, but literally slam the brakes). Japan can provide affordable healthcare to it's citizenry and still divert money into R&D because we are paying the bills. Our market is so lucrative.

It would be fair to argue that you're tired of footing the planet's healthcare. You could make the claim that you'd rather see meds/devices/procedures go back to the develpment pace of the 1950's vs the heyday of the 1990's. You might be right. But, you need to quit thinking that others are self-sufficient in doing their healthcare right. We sacrifice affordability and access here so that others benefit, and we benefit from the science. But, it has a price.

 

[TX-Beau]

I don't think there are that many horror stories; those are just the ones we always hear about. Kinda like crime! And that goes back to the SYSTEM or infra-structure upon which we operate in healthcare. But, it happens...happened a year ago to my grandfather (to this day, I think he's in asst living due mainly to the doctor's mis-prescribing). The problems is many 'specialists' doctors know very little about other disease states and the meds that accompany those diseases. Communication is not always great with every specialist and each patient's primary care physician.

Every old person in my family can tell you a story like that.

But I was responding more to the attitude that our healthcare is the best. It's good, my grandfather also got bypass surgery for his heart (30 years of pipe smoking) 40 YEARS ago (they gave him 10) and he's still going strong.

What our healthcare is absolutely the best at is costing us WAY MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE in the first world for comparable (if you have the money) service.

 

[Kulindahr]

You didn't read my earlier posts (probably bored you) but again the reason many socialist countries have descent healthcare procedures/medications is due to the profitablity of American healthcare. Again, we are the tent that holds up the entire globe in healthcare. What you don't grasp is that the Japans, Denmarks, Germans, Swiss, etc that are discovering the new scientific marvels in health sciences are doing it upon FUNDING my the profit machine, the United States. Most of a Japanese healthcare firm's profit/revenue comes from America. When we slow down US healthcare profits, we slow down Japan, etc in R&D (and not just slow down, but literally slam the brakes). Japan can provide affordable healthcare to it's citizenry and still divert money into R&D because we are paying the bills. Our market is so lucrative.

It would be fair to argue that you're tired of footing the planet's healthcare. You could make the claim that you'd rather see meds/devices/procedures go back to the develpment pace of the 1950's vs the heyday of the 1990's. You might be right. But, you need to quit thinking that others are self-sufficient in doing their healthcare right. We sacrifice affordability and access here so that others benefit, and we benefit from the science. But, it has a price.

I've been reading this over and over and can't make sense of it at all. A Japanese firm's clients/customers are in Japan. They get paid by them.

 

[Sammie13]

I've been reading this over and over and can't make sense of it at all. A Japanese firm's clients/customers are in Japan. They get paid by them.

Sorry. A Japanese manufacturer of med devices/equipment/pharmaceuticals typically find that the bulk of their sales come from Americans at huge profit margins. In their own country, margins are very slim. Yes, they employ Japanese to make the product and the Japanese citizens enjoy the health benefits at low-margin prices of the product, but it is in America where they get the big pay-off. I'm confused by your comment...a Japanese company can have clients/customers outside their nation's borders. If profits dry up in the US, it has a huge affect on health care manufacturers/corp overseas since the thrust of their decisons are with the US market in mind.

 

[TX-Beau]

So, what's the point?

We should keep our huge, massively expensive broken system so the Japanese can profit?

I'm confused.