Is Catholic Church Trying to Destroy A Victim's Advocates Organization?

[White Eagle]

Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests or SNAP is the organization that exposes Priests, predators et al. SNAP is afraid that the Catholic Church is Trying to Destroy the Victim's Advocates Organization. I don't understand why the Church is asking for the following:

The subpoenas – in St. Louis and in Kansas City – are virtually identical. They ask for every single document in SNAP’s records and e mails that mentions

every single current or former priest in each city, and
repressed memory (even if it involves a dead victim in Miami and a dead predator in Alaska).

(In St. Louis, however, church officials now claim they are backing away somewhat from two of the most sweeping demands.)

http://www.snapnetwork.org/deposition_of_a_snap_leader_to_be_made_public

Deposition of a SNAP leader to be made public
Posted by Mark Serrano on January 18, 2012 · Flag

Late yesterday, a judge “unsealed” the six hour deposition of SNAP Executive Director David Clohessy by five lawyers representing Kansas City Bishop Robert Finn and five Kansas City accused pedophile priests (Fr. Michael Tierney, Msgr. Thomas O’Brien, Fr. Mark Honhart, Fr. Francis McGlynn and Fr. Thomas Cronin). We will post it on our website as soon as we get a copy of the transcript. It ostensibly stems from a case called John Doe BP v. Fr. Michael Tierney and the Kansas City diocese and from one of three subpoenas that have been issued in recent weeks to victims who are SNAP leaders. This is the first time in SNAP’s 23 years that its staff has been subpoenaed.

Catholic officials are demanding thousands of pages of private records from child sex abuse victims and others. This has been called a “fishing expedition.” But it’s much worse than that. It’s a cynical, shrewd legal maneuver to deter victims, witnesses, whistleblowers, police, prosecutors, journalists and others from exposing predators, protecting kids and seeking help from SNAP.

 

[White Eagle]

I could have sworn that SOMEONE would hit the Church for this.

 

[palbert]

Don't think this is necessarily the Church. Looks more like the modern lawfirm "litigation is all out war." The end result desired may be the same but the Church should realize that these plaintiffs aren't going away, and the lawyers aren't bright enough to figure out that the hostility being created is re-enforcing the plaintiffs' resolve.

 

[Kulindahr]

Don't think this is necessarily the Church. Looks more like the modern lawfirm "litigation is all out war." The end result desired may be the same but the Church should realize that these plaintiffs aren't going away, and the lawyers aren't bright enough to figure out that the hostility being created is re-enforcing the plaintiffs' resolve.

I doubt the lawyers are pushing this without the bishops telling them to. It's a vile, foul tactic that reflects the character -- rather, the lack of it -- of the bishops in charge. There is no defense at all for these predators wearing miters and bearing croziers.

 

[White Eagle]

For me it's looking like the Church just don't want the predators being named. I wonder how many parishioners have left their church, afraid of the priest.

 

[White Eagle]

The Late Cardinal Beradine of Chicago Archdiocese, was accused, and later the accuser recinded his accusation, and asked the cardinal's forgiveness. There seems to be too many innocent priests being falsely accused, and I think that could be the reason for this round of legalities.

That's a good point, but ALL of the records? How about just the ones involving priests?

 

[White Eagle]

Agreed!

 

[White Eagle]

I'm sorry. I didn't know your association with him. As it is I'm not sure I have heard of anything about him.

 

[Kulindahr]

One problem here is the "Salem witch trial" effect: people, especially kids, figure out that such an accusation gives them incredible power over an adult, so there's a resultant high rate of false accusations, partly because kids don't really understand just what that does to the accused person. And in today's witch-hunt climate, the system assumes the kids are always telling the truth -- often even if the kid later says it was all made up.

 

[thewiz]

Lawyers don't do something that they were not commanded to do; especially since they don't pay their salaries but rather the church does.

The church needs to open the doors and let the light in. The more it tries to bolt the doors and hide, the more the crisis in faith will continue.

 

[JB3]

Frankly, I trust SNAP less than I trust the Catholic church. (and I don't remotely trust the Church)

The priest at my church (who later left the church and the priesthood and got married, oddly enough) was accused of molesting a young boy 30 years ago, and SNAP went on a PR rampage and dragged the priest through the mud. We're talking full front page story in the newspapers with a picture of the 'victim' hugging one of SNAP's leaders, and interviews with media galore.

The diocese put the priest on leave, and opened an investigation, as did the state's attorney's office. As it turns out, the 'recovered memories' the man claimed he had were nothing of the sort. The state's attorney's office was able to prove through their investigation that the priest and the man could have never met, because the priest had been transferred to a different church before the boy's family joined the congregation. Once that info was released and the pressure was on, the man admitted he didn't even know if the 'memories' were real and that he had never met the priest. The man and SNAP NEVER issued an apology to the priest, NEVER admitted they dragged an innocent man through the mud, and NEVER apologized to the community they very nearly destroyed.

Oh, and the lawyers in the congregation banded together and were preparing to sue both SNAP and the man for what they did, but the priest stopped them. Instead his first homily back at the church he stated that that was not the right course, and that he forgave the man for making the false accusation. Needless to say, any allegations that followed that were viewed very skeptically, especially if SNAP was involved.

 

[thewiz]

JB3, you point out something that is all too common today.

I was a police officer early in my professional career(s) and remember when hypnotism and various other forms of "memory recovery" first came into vogue. My cousin and my sister also saw a quack who "recovered memories" that they had been molested by my uncle and, in my sister's case, she became extremely angry at all the rest of the family. However, it turned out that the "memories" had been planted by the expert that they both were seeing.

Needless to say that in the police world, we had similar issues when all of these "experts" began plying their trade. I remember going to several seminars that outlined the wild goose chases that we were often led and what signs to watch for.

You have to also remember that the Catholic Church, for all its faults, also believed in "curative therapy" involving pedophiles that was so popular at the time. The Church invested heavily in these therapies, often sending priests off to other states for intensive work. Unfortunately, we know now that pedophilia is, by and large, not curable but is a predisposition largely unaffected by such treatments. The church, while not faultless, often thought the priest had been "cured" only to find he perpetrated the same abuses again and again. The fault lies with bishops who did not listen and then sought to cover up such abuse, putting the priest and clergy far above the flock for which they are supposed to care.

Many priests were "tainted" because of the actions of some. It was how I began training altar servers; our parish priest said it was better a married man train them because parents may be concerned if he were to have boys in the church without supervision. He couldn't even hug people for fear of being accused of enjoying the hugs a little too much.....

The position of priest is often lonely enough (unless you are at the Vatican or diocesan offices). Adding such isolation only makes the job of the priest that much more difficult, if not impossible.

 

[Kulindahr]

JB3, you point out something that is all too common today.

I was a police officer early in my professional career(s) and remember when hypnotism and various other forms of "memory recovery" first came into vogue. My cousin and my sister also saw a quack who "recovered memories" that they had been molested by my uncle and, in my sister's case, she became extremely angry at all the rest of the family. However, it turned out that the "memories" had been planted by the expert that they both were seeing.

Needless to say that in the police world, we had similar issues when all of these "experts" began plying their trade. I remember going to several seminars that outlined the wild goose chases that we were often led and what signs to watch for.

You have to also remember that the Catholic Church, for all its faults, also believed in "curative therapy" involving pedophiles that was so popular at the time. The Church invested heavily in these therapies, often sending priests off to other states for intensive work. Unfortunately, we know now that pedophilia is, by and large, not curable but is a predisposition largely unaffected by such treatments. The church, while not faultless, often thought the priest had been "cured" only to find he perpetrated the same abuses again and again. The fault lies with bishops who did not listen and then sought to cover up such abuse, putting the priest and clergy far above the flock for which they are supposed to care.

Many priests were "tainted" because of the actions of some. It was how I began training altar servers; our parish priest said it was better a married man train them because parents may be concerned if he were to have boys in the church without supervision. He couldn't even hug people for fear of being accused of enjoying the hugs a little too much.....

The position of priest is often lonely enough (unless you are at the Vatican or diocesan offices). Adding such isolation only makes the job of the priest that much more difficult, if not impossible.

I knew a professional counselor who did "curative therapy", but he always told his clients that it was like being on medication for the rest of their lives: every three months they'd need to go to a "maintenance seminar" to anchor them back in reality. He emphasized that the moment they thought they were safe from ever hurting someone again, they became a danger.

From another angle, I think this is what Rome gets for having celibate clergy. That's a purely human rule, and a very arrogant one at that: St. Paul wrote that celibacy is a gift given to some, and for the rest, GET MARRIED! It's not the business of bishops to demand that God grant all clergy that gift.
And I think God would rather a priest have a live-in male companion rather than see boys get hurt (I know of a parish where that was the case; everyone understood the relationship, and no one had a serious complaint [the worst I ever heard was, "It's too bad, but we all have weaknesses".])

From a third angle, I still don't get why the bishops, the moment they realized some priests weren't capable of being cured, didn't pool their funds, buy a remote hunk of land, and start a monastery for those priests. There are plenty of useful things for priests to do where they don't have to be around kids.
Oh, darn, there's a shortage of priests! Well... see my point just above.

 

[White Eagle]

Google his name, or look up his name in the registry.

I also knew one of the accusors personally, and he almost never took his meds. that helps keep chemical balances in his brain. It's like he has two different personalities. He followed my Superior everywhere he was transfered. from Wyoming all the way around from Patagonia AZ to Steubenville Ohio, and it was him, if I recall correctly, that instigated the entire breakdown, by contacting others and saying this and that, etc. I told the Bishop that this Guy even flashed his dick at me at one point in my formation program.

I googled it and came up with references that showed only he was guilty. So, I'm gonna believe what you say. I'm sure you would be truthful on something like this, and the problem with accusers lying happens too much.

 

[kallipolis]

I knew a professional counselor who did "curative therapy", but he always told his clients that it was like being on medication for the rest of their lives: every three months they'd need to go to a "maintenance seminar" to anchor them back in reality. He emphasized that the moment they thought they were safe from ever hurting someone again, they became a danger.

From another angle, I think this is what Rome gets for having celibate clergy. That's a purely human rule, and a very arrogant one at that: St. Paul wrote that celibacy is a gift given to some, and for the rest, GET MARRIED! It's not the business of bishops to demand that God grant all clergy that gift.
And I think God would rather a priest have a live-in male companion rather than see boys get hurt (I know of a parish where that was the case; everyone understood the relationship, and no one had a serious complaint [the worst I ever heard was, "It's too bad, but we all have weaknesses".])

From a third angle, I still don't get why the bishops, the moment they realized some priests weren't capable of being cured, didn't pool their funds, buy a remote hunk of land, and start a monastery for those priests. There are plenty of useful things for priests to do where they don't have to be around kids.
Oh, darn, there's a shortage of priests! Well... see my point just above.

Most child sexual abuse is perpetrated by the parents, siblings and close relatives of the victims - and, overwhelmingly so.

Celibacy is not the trigger, or causation for sexual abuse of minors.

The Conference of United States Catholic bishops funded research by the John Jay college into the causes of clerical sexual abuse.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ay-report-clergy-abuse-in-the-catholic-church

A link to the report is included in this analysis of the John Jay research

quote

The researchers conclude that there is no causative relationship between either celibacy or homosexuality and the sexual victimization of children in the Church. Therefore, being celibate or being gay did not increase the risk of violating children. So, blaming the clergy abuse crisis in the Catholic Church on gay men or celibacy is unfounded.

unquote

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Except that there's also research that some such men are attracted to the priesthood because they have the notion that the requirement of celibacy will keep them safe.

 

[JB3]

I googled it and came up with references that showed only he was guilty. So, I'm gonna believe what you say. I'm sure you would be truthful on something like this, and the problem with accusers lying happens too much.

And it doesn't help when an organization like SNAP busts out the pitchforks and torches before an investigation has even been done. I have no doubt that most of the priests they target are guilty, but even one priest being falsely accused is too much. Unfortunately, they don't seem to care...

 

[Kulindahr]

But the fact that it doesn't keep them safe in the first place...It's just like when I entered Religious Life for one of the Main reason that I was escaping being Gay, and that I'd stop masterbating, which only helped enhanced the Gayness, and still I continued masterbating...9 years, and no relief. Was I called to Religious Life? Yes. Was I honest with my sexuality? NO. I can, in some cases, relate to the pros and cons of the alterior motives, because I have lived it myself in the context of being Gay, and living the Consecrated Religious Life. My time in Religious Life was actually about 95-98% positive for the most part as I learned lots of beautiful things in the process. Celibacy will not keep anyone safe, and this is why the Church relies on Pshycological Testings, and yet, many still pass through them. I did not have a testing when I became a Carmelite Friar.

A professor whose expertise was church history, an ordained Lutheran pastor/priest, once spent a year in a monastery whose traditions and patterns hadn't changed since the 1500s, the idea being to get a feel for that aspect of medieval life. Other than developing an everlasting hatred of sheep, he came away with a butchered version of a saying, one I find appropriate here:

Hope stings eternal.


There are some things that humans latch onto for hope which never, ever work -- but still people keep trying them, generation after generation.

 

[kallipolis]

^
Except that there's also research that some such men are attracted to the priesthood because they have the notion that the requirement of celibacy will keep them safe.

I am interested to read this research. Please cite same. Thank you.

 

[Kulindahr]

I am interested to read this research. Please cite same. Thank you.

I don't have a cite handy. But on the way to seeing if I can find it online, I came across this enlightening gem:

Occurrence in child sex offenders

A perpetrator of child sexual abuse is, despite all medical definitions, commonly assumed to be a paedophile, and referred to as such; however, there may be other motivations for the crime (such as stress, marital problems, or the unavailability of an adult partner), much as adult rape can have non-sexual reasons. Thus, child sexual abuse alone may or may not be an indicator that its perpetrator is a paedophile; most perpetrators of it are in fact not primarily interested in children.

Those who have committed sexual crimes against children, but do not meet the normal diagnosis criteria for pedophilia, are referred to as situational, opportunistic, or regressed offenders, whereas offenders primarily attracted toward children are called structured, preferential, or fixated paedophiles, as their orientation is fixed by the structure of their personality. It is estimated that only 2 to 10 percent of child sexual abuse perpetrators meet the regular criteria for pedophilia. (Kinsey-Report, Lautmann, Brongersma, Groth).