Is forcing religion on children a form of child abuse?

[AngelBoy]

I’ve recently read The God Delusion by professor Richard Dawkins of Oxford University. (If you can buy it a bookshop in Little Rock it must be available in most places!).

His clear view is that parents forcing their religious ideas onto their children is a form of Child abuse – similar to sexual abuse and violence – though often worse in that the effects can be more profound and long lasting.

I found I strongly agreed with his view that religion is a form of “culturally transmitted” mental illness – and with his quote from Robert Pirsig - “When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion”

Does any one else here agree with the view that in a civilized society - there should be some limits placed on the extent to which adults can indoctrinate children with their own beliefs?

 

[GreatZeus]

It is absurd to suggest that religous training is anywhere close to child sexual abuse. But if it is, then insisting that children see themselves as having an ethnic identity must also be a form of child abuse askin to child sexual absuse. By the way, I see no evidence whatsoever that the non-religious are more civilized. We tend to judge all religious people like a few, which is like straight people judging all gay people by the few that the straight people know. Gay people get awfully angry when straight people do that. So I wonder why gay people think nothing at all of holding the view that all (or nearly all) religious people are vicious morons.

 

[sibersan]

I see how it can be considered as child abuse, but at the same time, i dont. The way i view relgion, is more as a guideline, a way on how you should live your life. Like dont kill people, dont do anything bad, blah blah blah etc. But at the same time, the person should be able to think for themself.

Personally, i dont give a shit about religion. I believe what i want to believe. If the christian god came to me to prove he's real, i'll acknowledge his existence, but i still wouldnt care. I dont believe in heaven or hell, i believe in reincarnation, and if reincarnation isnt real, i still dont care. Our soul can disappear when we die, and it wouldnt really brother me. I live by my morals, and i know whats right and wrong. I'm not gonna let somebody or thing tell me what to do, i can have my own mind, and can think for myself. I personally think it's sad when you ask somebody why they discrimate against a certain type of people, and the best answer they can give you is "because the <holy book> says so" or "that's what my parents taught me", you have a brain, use it.

 

[AngelBoy]

I think that maybe inculcating children with an ethnic identity can sometimes be similar. It depends if they are made to believe that their identity is “superior” or “right”.

The Aryan identity taught to the Hitler youth – or White supremacy teachings in much of the USA last century are examples of where this is maybe a bad thing. Many religions have the core belief that they are absolutely right – even the less nasty ones think that non-believers end up somewhere real bad.

The religious people I actually know seem OK – but I know most of them would vote to deny me the right to Marry another guy.

The ones I don’t know scare me more – Not just the Born Again “Jerry Fallwell” types and the ones that fly planes into buildings. But also all the hundreds of millions of other people that indirectly support them – or are sympathetic to their aims – if not their methods.

So I know a lot of them are vicious – the shame is they’re not morons – just normal intelligent kids that have been indoctrinated with dangerous delusions – that (despite all the evidence) they believe are absolutely right.

 

[AngelBoy]

The way i view relgion, is more as a guideline, a way on how you should live your life. Like dont kill people

Wish Religion was more like the Pirates code. In practice most of them interpret "dont kill people" as "dont kill people unless you feel like it" or the Moslem version "dont kill people unless they're not Moslim" (though this one is more a guideline - they tend to get carried away - and kill Moslims as well)

 

[Negasta]

I see how it can be considered as child abuse, but at the same time, i dont. The way i view relgion, is more as a guideline, a way on how you should live your life. Like dont kill people, dont do anything bad, blah blah blah etc. But at the same time, the person should be able to think for themself.

Unfortunately, free thought is not one of the attributes encouraged by religious teaching, however blind obedience is.

Prof. Dawkins used the example of a photograph he saw in the paper of a Christmas play at a preschool. The caption on the photograph read (paraphrased, with different names): "A Christmas play staring Christina (Christian), Ackbar (Muslim) and Sanjay (Sikh), all 4 years old." The children have all been labelled with the religion of their parents.

Imagine labelling the children as follows: "A Christmas play staring Christina (Marxist), Ackbar (Monetarist) and Sanjay (Capitalist), all 4 years old." In this case the children have been labelled with the socio-political views of their parents.

Now it becomes clear that it is both stupid and immoral to label small children with whatever views of their parents, because small children are not yet able to even understand what they mean.

However, Prof. Dawkins goes far wider in his book and gives compelling reasons why raising a child religious might be considered child abuse.

 

[Mitri T]

My brother and father are Muslim. I am not. They tell me that they want me to be of this faith but it must be my idea. Bad people of all kind force family to think thing of all idea not just religion. Better that they want me to see religion than they want me to see hate.

 

[7abiib_azzubb]

or the Moslem version "dont kill people unless they're not Moslim" (though this one is more a guideline - they tend to get carried away - and kill Moslims as well)

I was born a Muslim, raised a Muslim, I even grew up in a Muslim country, and I never once met someone who killed another being, including all the members of my family. I will keep an eye out, though. Maybe that one guy that shows up at the cafe in the tight t-shirt with the piercing black eyes and the bulging biceps is one of "your" Muslims. I should investigate him more carefully.

As for the abuse question - if religion is a form of abuse, then so is ethnic identity, gender identity and expression and anything normative that regulates, governs and streamlines our lives. Your argument regarding the Third Reich was on the dot in that anything normative when taken to an extreme can be used to force things on adults and children. Myself, I wouldn't blame religion or ethnic identity or whatever identity category exists out there, I would blame the human condition of "we-are-better-than-you" syndrome. And as a cure to that, I would recommend listening to religion when it demands to love thy neighbor or to live and let live.

 

[iah822003]

I'm not sure if I would regard that as child abuse although I think I can see why, but I think that it's certainly brainwashing and misinforming them to think in a rigid way. I think it's good that they're encouraged to be good people, but I personally believe that children should be reasoned with using logic/common sense and not with the wrath of God. Children should be taught about what happens if you behave in this way or that way (like being kind/cruel, co-operative/unco-operative etc) so that they realise the consequences of their actions, thus allowing them to be more understanding and make better choices in life.

 

[AngelBoy]

I'm not sure if I would regard that as child abuse although I think I can see why, but I think that it's certainly brainwashing and misinforming them

If brainwashing and misinforming children isn’t a form or abuse - what is? I’d certainly rate it worse than taking naked photos of them.

Any parent/adult authority figure who is not a bad person should sometimes seriously contemplate the idea that the beliefs they hold may not be absolutely right.

In which case they should at least have the common sense and humility to let future generations decide for themselves based on the real factual evidence available.

 

[Andreus]

your opinion is being considered, angel

just know that some people do not agree

 

[Andreus]

Mitri, you don't have to choose between religion and hate. Hopefully you can see love.

my brother has alot of love in his life. he doesnt need to choose it. he already has it.

 

[Spensed]

Indoctrination is abusive, but that would apply whether the child is being indoctrinated to believe in some religion or in atheism.

I dont see that simply bringing a child up in a particular religion is any more indoctrination than teaching other things that the parents believe in, like not spitting on the floor or not allowing some stranger to abduct you.

When the children grow up, they can make their own decisions.

It would be nonsensical and abusive for a family with a strong religious tradition to deny their children the benefit of that and bring them up as if they were Richard Dawkins' kids.

 

[AngelBoy]

your opinion is being considered, angel

just know that some people do not agree

Hey Andreous – Glad to know my opinion is worthy of your consideration

Hope that isn’t a fatwa style consideration – but hey - Salmon Rushdie still seems to be still going strong.

Anyway - this would be a real boring place if we all agreed – plus I’m a big player here with 19 posts while you’ve only got a mere 18,522

Fuk wish my maths was better – always mess up exponents – so You have 18.5 E 3 posts ….. MMM – yea well

Like your eyes man – I don’t think they look at all sinister and nasty – no honestly think they’re way real friendly eyes – just the sort of eyes that are great.

Hey - Anything you’d like me to unsay – just let me know. No way would I want to say anything to offend “Some people” or their (totally legitmate non mafia) business associates

 

[Andreus]

nothing other than that you seem to be trying to convince us of your beliefs and in the religious forum you are going to have to accept that a great many of us disagree with you. you may also want to reread the forum guidelines and remember that this is a no flame zone. the mods are smart enough to recognize sarcasm wepecially when things like PMs are read in conjunction with them.

In spite of our disagreement, we do consider what you are saying. that does not mean that we agree with you, but your words are not being ignored or snowed over. they are illiciting thought.

and if you cant refrain from making islamophobic comments then you may want to consider not making any comments at all.

i wont be making any changes to my signature, but thanks for the suggestions in priavte to do so. There is a function on your homepage what allows you to turn signatures off though if it is disturbing you that much.

your post isnt imprtant enough for me to ask you to change in anyway, but i apreciate the sentiment.

 

[AngelBoy]

Hey Andreus – Is it OK if I use the “Royal We” as well? If I need to have more postings or paid membership first – please let me know?

“We” have no problem with others holding different views to us. In fact we consider it would be less interesting if everyone had the same views as ourselves.

We are aware that some of our comments could be construed as Islamophobic and we will refrain from this in future. We also regret our implied criticism of the Hitler Youth in prior postings - any implication that the Nazis were not real nice guys is regretted by us.

We do not consider that we have violated the no flame zone rules – no doubt you are correct that the moderators will vigilantly trawl through private messages seeking to root out and detect any hint of sarcasm.

We are glad our message isn’t “imprtant” – (guess that means important?) - in general I find the signatures fine – but I do think the eyes shown in yours do look a bit disturbing.

I would stress that this is not a personal insult – and is maybe more influenced by the apparently sinister tone of your last message.

In short - I wont insult members personally - in the meantime - assuming you're throwing your weight around as a site owner/moderator - either chuck me off the site or else quit bothering me.

 

[iah822003]

If brainwashing and misinforming children isn’t a form or abuse - what is? I’d certainly rate it worse than taking naked photos of them.

Any parent/adult authority figure who is not a bad person should sometimes seriously contemplate the idea that the beliefs they hold may not be absolutely right.

In which case they should at least have the common sense and humility to let future generations decide for themselves based on the real factual evidence available.

I guess when adults are telling the children that they're going to go to hell because of this and that and the children really believe it, I can see that as being a kind of mental torture, which I guess is a form of child abuse.

 

[Shepherd 2]

Not SEX, nor RELIGION, nor POLITICAL OPINION
may be coerced upon a child. It is not criminal in the eyes of the state, but it is violence. I see this not only for children but for adults as well.

How do you understand what happened at Jonestown? or Waco and a host of other places. In my blog I write of what is is like to have sex forced upon you, expecially as a child.

I agree with the gentleman from Oxford, although I prefer Cambridge. In fact I have my theology degree from YALE.

Has this been tested in a civil court? I do not know, but my lawyer son could advise me about any precedent.

 

[Andreus]

Hey Andreus – Is it OK if I use the “Royal We” as well? If I need to have more postings or paid membership first – please let me know?

“We” have no problem with others holding different views to us. In fact we consider it would be less interesting if everyone had the same views as ourselves.

We are aware that some of our comments could be construed as Islamophobic and we will refrain from this in future. We also regret our implied criticism of the Hitler Youth in prior postings - any implication that the Nazis were not real nice guys is regretted by us.

We do not consider that we have violated the no flame zone rules – no doubt you are correct that the moderators will vigilantly trawl through private messages seeking to root out and detect any hint of sarcasm.

We are glad our message isn’t “imprtant” – (guess that means important?) - in general I find the signatures fine – but I do think the eyes shown in yours do look a bit disturbing.

I would stress that this is not a personal insult – and is maybe more influenced by the apparently sinister tone of your last message.

In short - I wont insult members personally - in the meantime - assuming you're throwing your weight around as a site owner/moderator - either chuck me off the site or else quit bothering me.

ahhh

dont try this with me

you and a few others spoke directlty to my brother and I spoke on our behalf

second

DO NOT send me anymore private messages

third..... I am one man with one voice, not a moderator or an owner and if you have a prblem with me i sugggest you send them a note ... until then, i will do precisely as you have... i will express my opinions.

you have an axe to grind and you have a personal issue

dont take it out on this forum

 

[Neji]

I would say so to an extent. You're taken away the freedom/ability to choose think for yourself. I grew up in the church system like that and I couldn't have felt better after I stopped going. Looking back to the past, it does seem like often it does seem like most of the stuff being said is indoctrination of one's personal beliefs on what's moral/immoral and they even said they want to target the children because the children are the future. What they forget to mention is that children are more emotionally vulnerable and easier to manipulate as well. Not all people who are in churches and are religious are like that, but the ones I've ever met, for the most part I'd rather not have anything to do with them.