Is it a persons resposibility to come out?

[Boogerqueesha]

If every gay person came out at once, society would be forced to accept them all.

If every person with a good heart and a good brain decided to mob the white house, Bush would be forced to resign.

But alas.

 

[Swellegant]

Get off your high horse. You ARE saying people should come out.
You have such contempt for these people. You've called them pussies. You would rather sacrifice their lives in order to satisfy the lust of destroying the 'majority' which has hurt you so.

The main reason why some don't come out...they have more respect for themselves and life in general. Those who go around saying "Fuck You!" lack that which makes us human.

Disgusting.

I'm disgusting... that's not contemptuous!

I didn't realize we'd been moved to the No Flame Zone or I wouldn't have used such strong language. But the fact remains that what closeted people are doing looks like cowardice to me. Like I said before, I've never been in the closet and I cannot comprehend it. I have my perspective, and nothing I have read so far has made the tiniest dent in it, try as I might to understand.

I do not understand how someone can respect himself by allowing people to disrespect what he is. Please tell me how that works. How is it that telling haters to go fuck themselves makes me inhuman; are you saying that meekly folding up under ignorance and bigotry makes us more human? I don't understand that one at all.

Maybe I am on a high horse. But I climbed up here with a lot of effort, and I'm not coming down without a good reason.

 

[Roland00]

I do not understand how someone can respect himself by allowing people to disrespect what he is. Please tell me how that works. How is it that telling haters to go fuck themselves makes me inhuman; are you saying that meekly folding up under ignorance and bigotry makes us more human? I don't understand that one at all.

I am reminded of a quote my priest once said (when I was a child and still religious) "Understanding is not a pre-requisite of faith or obedience." Well I am going to modify it now, you don't need to understand for it isn't your life, it is theirs. He just needs to satisfy his own view of the world not yours.

Lets turn this on its head. Instead of explaining his own set of conditions to you that will satisfy you. Lets take a straight couple, they are trying to understand homosexual love and intimacy. "Yet they just can't understand it, they can't comprehend it for if they were you they wouldn't feel the same romantic intimacy to a person of the same sex." Since they can't understand they won't respect that person decision, instead they decry it. Same sex couples can not have intimacy, or if they have intimacy it is somehow not real, they aren't loving they are just lusting.

Of course as a non straight man I am assuming you understand how foolish this straight couple position is. After all you have all these experiences which just prove how foolish this logic is. That is the big point, you have your own set of personal experiences it may be completely impossible for you to understand that person until you have lived a similar life, it may be impossible for you to understand even if you have a similar experiences for you view the world from a different perspective.

 

[luminum]

Is it a person's responsibility to be honest with themselves and the ones they love and to be unashamed of who they are?

I guess that's up to you, but I always thought it was people's responsibility to be happy on their own terms, not because someone else told them they should be ashamed of what they are.

Roland, while they may not understand, that does not free them of the responsibility of aknowledging that what they do not understand does not equate objective fact.

 

[Eagle653]

Hey guys, a reminder that we're in a No Flame Zone now with this thread. A few posts are pushing the line and bordering on flaming. I'm not going to edit this because it's not out of control at the moment, but wanted you to keep the NFZ in mind when you post.

Thanks.

 

[Swellegant]

I had a whole bunch of things to say this morning, but I had to go to work. And now I can't remember most of them.

I also can't remember telling anyone that they had to come out... if I remember correctly, I said that I think people should come out. I still think so... I think it's good for you. I think it will enhance your life and the lives of others. It might cause some discomfort and distress at first, but so do a lot of things that are good for you: I just spent a very uncomfortable and distressing forty minutes on an elliptical machine at the gym, but I think it will get better with practice and that eventually I'll start seeing some rewards.

I don't remember threatening to force people out of the closet, either. And even if I did, I think we're all perfectly aware that I don't have that power. I'm not holding a gun to your head; I don't own a gun, I don't know where you live, I don't know your real name, where you work or go to school... there's nobody I can out you to.

And while I most certainly did say that I think the closet is a place for cowards, that I think people who are afraid to come out are pussies, I'm just stating what I think. Who the hell am I to tell you what to think? I'm just some random bipolar recovering alcoholic drag queen secretary who lives with his Grandmother and hasn't had sex in eleven years. Why do you care what I think?

When people ask me sincere questions about why I am the way I am or why I do the things I do, I try to tell them. I have explained to many straight people about how gay works and how, although you can't imagine it works, it does indeed work... and if they want an illustration I have books and videos to share with them. I have, on this very board, explained a lot about effeminacy and drag to a lot of people who didn't understand it. I have increased understanding and won a certain degree of tolerance for my fellow queens from people who were acting in ignorance.

If I perceive that they're just looking for ammunition to use against me (and many have), I still tell them. Trying to enlighten people is a useful pastime... for even if you don't change their minds, you increase your own understanding. And when I asked for enlightenment, I was sincere. I really would like to understand something that is so alien to me, something I've never experienced, something that looks like cowardice to me because that is what it looks like to me. I would love to be wrong.

I can understand why someone would remain closeted in certain circumstances. Like it's dangerous to your health and safety because of where you live; I would never tell a person in that kind of circumstances that he needs to come out to all and sundry, to proclaim his sexuality in public. I think he should come out to his family, unless he has a reasonable expectation that they will kill him (as has been known to happen). But the general rank-and-file homosexual in the Western world isn't in that situation. Sure, you don't want to get up in drag and walk the streets of Pocatello... but you can surely come out to your mom. Even if she does try to beat you to death, you can probably outrun her.

Or say, for example, that you were still in school and relying on your parents' support to finish your studies so you can become independent... that makes perfect sense to me: why rock the boat before you have a life-jacket on? Would I be inclined to take such a drastic step? I don't know. However, there is a way of looking at that same situation from a different perpective and seeing someone tricking people into paying for his education under a pretense.

I'm not saying one way of looking at it is right and the other wrong, I am saying that I would like to understand the situation better, because it looks a little funky to me. And I'm pointing out what I find funky about it in case you hadn't seen it that way before and want to take some time to think about it. I hope you'd do the same for me.

And one final thing: if I heard a lot of people singing and dancing and writing hymns to how happy they are in their closets, I'd drop the whole argument and stop hassling you. So long as you're happy, knock yourself out. My life isn't perfect, but I'm happy as a pig in shit... if you're happy as a pig in shit, you're doing something right.

But what I do hear from closeted people, though, is a lot of worrying and complaining about how hard it is: how lonely they are having to keep secrets, how they have to watch everything they say and do for fear of being found out; and how us big mean fairies in our gay meccas talk smack about them for doing something we can't understand, how the extreme weirdo drag-queens and leather-freaks make it so much harder for them to come out because they don't want to be associated with us and looked down upon by their family and peers.

That doesn't sound like "Happy" to me. But once again, I would love to be wrong.

Thank you for allowing me to take part in this conversation. I hope I haven't flamed anybody, for that was by no means my intention. I just want to share what I know and learn what you know.

 

[J_Nite]

I think a lot of good comments were made here, on both sides of the argument. I think people should just do what is going to be comfortable for them. If someone feels it is their responsibility to come out, then they should. If you are proud of who you are and comfortable in your skin: then shout it from the rafters. But I do ask that you consider the rights of others. For the most part, if there are two consenting adults : what they do in their bedroom is their business. I dont mean to be rude, but who a person loves or their sexual orientation shouldnt be other people's business unless the person in question wants others to know. Yes, there was a good argument about visibility, it is quite valid but "outing" people or forcing them to come out is no way to act. I suggest we all live our lives in which ever way we each think is best for us. While some of us may think that everyone has the luxury of being able to come out, it is simply not true for every case. Family, religion, job, community matter more to some people than others, and losing one (or all) sometimes isnt worth the risk. If you want to come out (and can) then do it, I applaud you for that, but please respect that it isnt as easy for others. We are all human beings, and all of us have different situations in life. If you cannot or will not see someone else's point of view: let it go and move on. There is much more to enjoy in life than these arguments about how someone else lives. DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU and let others make their own decisions. I have seen young people's lives ruined because some gossipy person outed them and it eventually got back to the person's family (which kicked them out), and those things happen everyday and are real occurences. While i think that others should be more accepting of homosexuality, it doesnt happen. So if you think someone should come out, remember that it is their decision, not yours. if they choose to: great, if they dont: thats their concern. If you dont want someone to meddle in your life or pressure you to do something, then dont do it to others. You can encourage people to come out, but no one has the right to make someone feel bad about choosing to not come out. Besides, a persons orientation is their business and not for others to question, comment on, harass, etc. We should all just have more respect for others' opinions and ideas, not rip each other apart about this. All we should do is be supportive, not hurtful.

 

[DavidNY]

Well now let's hear it from the one of the cowards who hasn't come out yet!


This has been a great thread to read and I will definitely come back and read every post again when that damn moment comes when I do realize I have 'nothing to lose' and come out.

Meanwhile, I think it's detrimental for both 'sides' of the issue to work against each other here. There are people who feel they have a responsibility, there are those that don't, and there are many who recognize perhaps the responsibility but are immobilized to act for whatever reasons.

I think both perspectives (the one allowing people the acceptance of making personal decisions in their own time, and the one that says 'we' have a duty to ourselves and others to come out) have their place and time and there's no reason for folks to work against each other here.

Part of the coming out process it seems to me from reading posts here is the transition from the former to the latter. Some like Robert~Marlénè were able to grow up with the latter perspective and others did after a while in the closet. As always, at any given moment there will be people like me who have not yet made it to being able to the deliver on the responsibility asked.

I think the fear of what one has to lose is more nuanced than, Robert, you let on. Sometimes I wished I had more crap in a way so I could just leave it all. But dammit I have stuff to lose (just as most people do). I know staying in this position is not healthy for me (I'm 23 now) and I don't intend to. But for most of us, we aren't just able to walk away from the life we know so easily. Perhaps my family will make it easier on me by being embarrassed of me or ashamed.

But it's even then more complicated. I don't hate my parents and they would never hate me even if they hated an aspect of me. But they just did not grow up in the culture that accepted homosexuality. Heck, my father was a fighter pilot in the Air Force for decades, and my parents have I don't know how many damn priests and bishops and theologians between them as parents and grandparents. I can't yet just throw the only life I've known by saying "Damn you for not understanding" and walk away.

I know there has to be a first step and every gay person must probably jump over the cliff countless times. I know it felt like that when I told my best friend in school I was gay. I know I wish I had been able to tell more people with more confidence.

For me, I'm trying to position myself where I do not feel as if the free fall I make when I jump is so scary that I just don't ever jump. I decided to wait 'til I graduated college and now that I will be moving to grad school in a few months, I know one of those rare opportunities will come soon.

And so, I've been trying to structure myself in ways like making sure the University has a safe place for people like me who are scared, like losing touch in a deliberate and more organic way with friends I feel will lose respect, etc.

I know I may one day soon have to give up all or most that I've known and it scares me. It also angers me thinking of the relatives who may find it funny. And then it makes me bitter to think of how well I could be doing personally if I didn't have this damn love for people of my sex. But most of all, it saddens me to think that I really like some of the people who will not think of me as they used to.

So while I cannot even fathom right now having to take on the question of whether it is my responsibility to myself and others to come out now, it is still a good question to be asked of someone like me. It forces me to look and think of others who have done the same, to find people who have made it easier for people like me to come out.

So thanks to everyone who's posted here. Reading your opinions (whether you agreed or disagreed with each other) have helped to me think more seriously and with more immediacy about coming out. I know I will definitely return to this thread and read your posts again to give me some small amount of courage and comfort that will hopefully help me do what I know I should do and have for long wanted to do.

 

[Swellegant]

Thank you, DavidNY... that was exactly what I was hoping to get from this thread: insight. I do feel that I understand you... I don't relate to your experience, it's too foreign to me; but I comprehend your experience, which is the first step toward empathy.

And you know, IJBML86, I'm not one of those who think people should be outed. That's simply mean... people do have to come out at their own speed and in their own time. But sometimes one gets impatient with them.

It's like a phobia, the people who don't have the phobia just look at you crazy and get impatient with you: "what do you mean you're afraid of clowns? How can anybody be afraid of clowns?" Now, the only way to get over your fear of clowns is to face it down and immerse yourself in clowns, or at least force yourself to look at them until the fear simmers down to a vague discomfort.

But it would be mean and cruel to take a known coulrophobe and throw him into the clown tent at the circus. And so I would never presume to out someone to his family and the world... unless, of course, he was actively doing harm to me and my brothers and sisters in the gay world and needed to be shown up as the hypocrite he or she is.

 

[Seifer20]

I would like to possibly add another perspective. Though I have talked to a few people in my life, I would still consider myself "closeted".

I don't have a lot of fear or hatred to worry about, as most people I know would still care for me no matter what. For me, the hardest part of talking to people is that I don't really know myself. So, I can't tell them exactly what I am and this makes it incredibly difficult to talk to someone. Only recently have I even acknowledged the fact that I'm attracted to the same sex. So even my university friends who have known me for three years would be surprised. In fact, one girl that I've come out to doesn't even believe me.

I don't feel like coming out is going to somehow reveal my true self to everyone I know. I feel the opposite would actually happen. I think that some people I know would just start stereotyping my and treat me differently then they do now. Are they doing it because they are homophobes or because they hate gay people? No, they'd do it because they would think that is how you're suppose to react, which I feel makes the situation even more uncomfortable. How do you tell someone who's trying to be supportive to fuck off? How do you correct their thinking to what it's like to be gay or bi when you don't even know yourself?

For me, I see coming out as huge change in my life. I see having to fight others for understanding, correcting stereotypical thinking and having to convince those closest to me about this aspect of myself. Not to mention the change in my own lifestyle. I can't imagine dealing with this while at the same time still trying to figure things out myself. Am I a pussy? I don't know. Am I scared/nervous/anxious about it, hell yes! I'm sure someone will think I'm a coward. Call it selfishness, but helping these people's 'cause' is rather far from my mind at the moment.

I'm amazed by the courage some people have for facing the crap they do. But I can't hold it against people who want to keep this hidden for whatever reason since I don't know exactly what they're going through.

 

[sexaddict76]

I didn't read every post here, but I think it's easier for a young person like JakeBequette to come out, than it was when I was his age. My sixteen year old niece has lots of gay/bi friends and she likes to play around with being bi, for shock value. She's been talking about her gay/bi friends for years and it seems like a trend. She's been to several schools and it's the same everywhere.

When I was in school, no one was out. My senior year, one guy transfered form a magnet school and everyone knew he was bi, because he was on the news, with his boyfriend. He was picked on a lot. Since high school, I've ran into lot's of gay people from school.

It seems like an easier time to come out, but If everyone came out now, it's not gonna make much of a difference. It's gonna take time.

 

[probeteam1]

I'm sure this thread has been made before, so just humor me.

So in writing a PM that thought crossed my mind. "Is it a persons resposibility to come out?"

Personally, I'd say that there is not, at least not in the way that you describe. People have a responsibility to themselves, to come out - at least to themselves. Admitting it to oneself makes life a lot easier, IMO, even if you then choose to remain in the closet.

I was 15 when I first came out to people I trusted. I'm 19 now and important people in my life know I'm gay, anyone who isn't important to me I don't really care if they know or not. If someone asks, I tell them I'm gay, I don't deny it or try to hide it.

Well, that's very good for you then.

We all want things to change in a positive way for gay and bisexual men and women, right? So why do some guys and girls decide to hide or deny who they are?

Is this a serious question? There are so many reasons.

For things to change people cannot act ashamed or scared, we all need to be proud of who we are and show others that there's nothing wrong with us, we're just not the same as they are. Right? For there to be acceptance shame has to be eliminated.

Chicken and egg. For shame to be eliminated, the stigma must be removed. For things to change, other people have to stop thinking of homosexuality as shameful.

So why do some guys continue to choose to hide and deny who they are? I don't buy into that whole "I don't live in a place where I can come out" shit, rural gays are the ones who need to come out the most, to show the country that we're not just in the big cities and cruise ships (that's a joke), that gay and bisexual men and women are ALL OVER.

That's a very selfish way to look at it. Your opinion on the matter completely fails to examine the possible consequences of coming out in those communities, focusing only on the message such outings would express.

If "that whole 'I don't live in a place where I can come out' shit" were truly so unreasonable, you could rpresent evidence that their coming-out would be a positive experience. But I don't think it's possible to make that argument. Had I come out when I was fifteen, I would have significantly reduced my chances of growing into the well-adjusted and reasonably healthy individual I am today. While I would (probably) have survived the experience, that doesn't mean it would've been a good idea.

I don't think any of that makes sense.

The point I'm trying to make is that for homosexuallity and bisexuallity to be accepted people need to be proud of who they are, not ashamed, and not afraid. Agree? Disagree?[

I disagree. For homosexuality and bisexuality to be accepted, people need to accept it; you can't make people accept you, they have to come to that conclusion on their own, just as you can't really make people accept themselves. While I think that gay people might be better off if they weren't ashamed, I don't necessarily believe that it'll make them any more acceptable. And fear exists for a reason.

The way I see it, I don't owe anyone my coming-out. When I came out, I came out for one person: myself. It is my life and my choices - they don't belong to anyone else.

But then, what do I know? I've never been particularly good at being gay, to hear various other people tell it.

 

[probeteam1]

If people don't come out it's always going to be that way. People shouldn't have to come out, being striaght shouldn't be the norm, and allowing people to think that a gay person is actually straight only strengthens that feeling.

So what? If they're willing to live with the one more than the other, why take the risk?

It sucks that there's so much attached to coming out, but wouldn't you like it if the gay kids after you didn't have to deal with that?

Sure I would. But I'd also like it if I didn't have to deal with that. There are lots of things we want. There are remarkably fewer that we want enough to take the steps to get them.

If the ones before you had made things change so you didn't have to feel uncomfortable with letting others know who you are?

Sure. But they didn't - at least not entirely. And I don't blame them, because to be honest they didn't really owe me anything.

That's only true because so few people actually do it.

Can you present any proof to back this up?

If everyone came out and the real number of gay and bisexual men and women was exposed, don't you think that would change peoples way of thinking?

No.

Knowing that being gay or bi is common rather than the exception has to mean something, not only to straight people, but to closeted gay men and women around the world.

Sure. To a lot of people it would mean that "Secular humanism has finally ruined our society" or "I'm surrounded by perverts" or even "Okay, so there're lots of gay people - but for now I stil live in BFE, Podunk USA, which the past couple decades have kinda passed by, and coming out here is still kinda tricky."

That feeling of loneliness and isolation comes from somewhere.

Yes. Often, it coems from being alone and isolated.

But I still don't really get your point. Sure, things might be better in the long term if more people came out, but that doesn't mean people are obligated to make the personal sacrifices to make it happen. It'd just be nice if it eventually did.

 

[Boogerqueesha]

In terms of making the world accept homosexuality:

My friend (a very smart, very straight, girl) once mused, the only way to make a bigot accept gays, is to

1. make them like you FIRST

AND THEN

2. let them know you're gay.

If they know off the bat, you won't make a tiny dent in their conscience. If they already like you, they will be forced to attach the label of 'gay' to something they've already formed a positive opinion of.

Yes. If this is true, limp-wristed, lisp-touting flamers won't make a difference It's my personal belief; everyone's entitled to their own.

What WON'T make a difference, is staying in the closet, that's for sure. Whether you can afford to make a difference or not, is a different matter. It's usually much easier than people think. By the same token, being acquainted with an openly gay person usually shows closeted persons how easy it really is. If they in turn come out, they can show even MORE people how easy it is. Etc. Etc.