Is Mitt Romney's Candidacy Part of 'The Eternal Plan' of the Mormon Church?

[Stardreamer]

Its interesting how I hear so much here about how conservative Christians will not vote for a Mormon but I almost never hear it on the conservative talk shows and venues I follow. Hell I hear more Birther Chatter than I hear 'Mormons are evil' chatter and both are routinely laughed off most of the shows they call in on. While Romney's religion plays a small part in the party's desire for another candidate it is a very small part, most of the objection to Romney is whether he is 'conservative' enough for the Rino Hunters.

 

[rareboy]

No it isn't.

The Mormon "God the Father" isn't the Creator of all; he's just a human who made good and got a planet to play with. The Mormon "Jesus Christ" wasn't born of a virgin, he was born of a woman who got drugged and Adam, who is really "God the Father", came down and had sex with her.

They use the words, but it's like pulling some Bedouin out of the desert and naming him "George W. Bush". When they say "Savior", they don't mean someone who did all the work necessary to pull you out of a doomed path, they mean someone who did a lot but wasn't capable of handling the hard parts -- people have to do those themselves.

And the official teaching of the Mormon Church is that all the Creeds and Confessions held by Christians are utterly false. That means they don't believe in "God the Father, Maker of Heaven and Earth" or in "Jesus Christ, his only Son", and so on.

I'm just dying for the Book of Mor(m)on to start being dissected once the Mittster gets the nod.

Scientology will look like Presbyterianism by comparison.

I think that a lot of people have been hoodwinked into thinking that Moronism is a Christian sect because the choir makes Christmas albums and shows.

This election finally offers the opportunity to shine a very bright light on the Mormons and to hopefully have the Catholics, Baptists and other christian sects go for the throat.

Perfect for the 2012 election season.

Let the big game begin.

 

[Just_Believe18]

Mormonism believes in some crazy theological shit. I believe any person should run for President regardless of their religious faith; however, there's a reason why the Christian fundamentalists have serious issues with Mormonism. It is so different and outside of the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Stardreamer]

Mormonism believes in some crazy theological shit. I believe any person should run for President regardless of their religious faith; however, there's a reason why the Christian fundamentalists have serious issues with Mormonism. It is so different and outside of the Old and New Testaments.

But those fundamentalists are not speaking up on those issues as far as I can tell at least not on the main stream conservative news and talk. As far as I can tell they have decided to hold their nose and not make it an issue. IMO the Mormons have managed to 'buy' their way into an uneasy acceptance by social conservatives by their support of the conservative christian causes, in particular the Prop 8 fight in California.

I'm not saying they don't have those 'serious issues' but they have largely decided to not make them an issue in this election.

 

[rareboy]

I'll bet if Romney was a black mormon, there'd be hell to pay.

But because he fits the chiselled profile of a Mt. Rushmore Republican, the southern baptist convention and the College of Cardinals are happy to fake it and pretend that Mitt is the magic Christian.

But I do know some who apparently do believe that he may be the antichrist:

Mormonism has already come a long way in accomplishing its goal of being accepted as a main stream
religion compatible with Christianity. Those Christians who support Mitt Romney and who vote for him
will only be partners in his evil deeds. They are and will be partners of the terrible evil deed of confusing
others with a Jesus who is a false Christ, a counterfeit Jesus, who is an imposter, and is an antichrist.
Christians supporting and voting for Romney will partner with a Mormon to lead others to embrace an
antichrist, rather than the true Christ of the Bible.

http://pastors4huckabeeblog.files.w...ical-case-against-voting-for-a-mormon-for.pdf

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm just dying for the Book of Mor(m)on to start being dissected once the Mittster gets the nod.

A Mormon missionary once asked me if I'd read the Book of Mormon. I told him yes, so he asked what I thought. I said it was almost as good as Conan the Barbarian, but it lacked a real hero.

I think that was the blankest, most at-a-loss face I've ever seen on one of those boys.

But that's not where the bizarre doctrine is; the crazy stuff is in Doctrines and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price, plus some sermons by Brigham Young.

I think that a lot of people have been hoodwinked into thinking that Moronism is a Christian sect because the choir makes Christmas albums and shows.

This election finally offers the opportunity to shine a very bright light on the Mormons and to hopefully have the Catholics, Baptists and other christian sects go for the throat.

I'd love to see it officially condemned as a heresy by the U.S. Bishops council.

 

[Kulindahr]

Mormonism believes in some crazy theological shit. I believe any person should run for President regardless of their religious faith; however, there's a reason why the Christian fundamentalists have serious issues with Mormonism. It is so different and outside of the Old and New Testaments.

Especially that angelic statement reported by Joseph Smith that "all the creeds" and all the doctrines of all the churches in upper New York at the time were false....

and the teaching of Blood Atonement, which isn't about Jesus on the Cross, but an assertion that Jesus' blood on the Cross wasn't enough, that there are sins a man must pay for with his own blood.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'll bet if Romney was a black mormon, there'd be hell to pay.

But because he fits the chiselled profile of a Mt. Rushmore Republican, the southern baptist convention and the College of Cardinals are happy to fake it and pretend that Mitt is the magic Christian.

But I do know some who apparently do believe that he may be the antichrist:



http://pastors4huckabeeblog.files.w...ical-case-against-voting-for-a-mormon-for.pdf

He's better called an antichrist -- millennialists tend to forget John's third letter, which says that many antichrists appear in the world.

I think enough solid Christians will refuse to vote for him to make a percentage point or two difference, possibly more. It's going to be a question of which antichrist they hate more, Romney or Obama, and whether they then decide to participate in evil by voting for either, or just stay home. JustBelieve can probably say more accurately, but my guess is that over half the Pentecostals and their fellow travelers will just stay home or will write in Santorum.

 

[rareboy]

I have also read the Book of Mormon and wish that someone would make it into the motion picture it wants to be.

In the second installment, there could be an Alien vs. Predator thing between Scientologists and The Morons with a shout out from the Abrahamics and the Hindus.

 

[Kulindahr]

I have also read the Book of Mormon and wish that someone would make it into the motion picture it wants to be.

In the second installment, there could be an Alien vs. Predator thing between Scientologists and The Morons with a shout out from the Abrahamics and the Hindus.

Somewhere near the end would have to be an explanation of why with those extensive civilizations there are no artifacts left.

Maybe the Lamanites and all turned gay and tore down their cities and got rid of all their technology and moved back into the wilderness for blissful ecologically sound sex.

 

[Wafflecakes]

As much as many things the Mormon church does/believes are...strange to say the least.

I think it is totally inappropriate to say many of the things that people have said in this thread. Romney has not made religion an issue and bringing up this stuff without real evidence that they will directly effect his acts as president should he get elected is an irresponsible slippery slope.

I was raised Mormon (obviously not now) and I am as anti Mormon as the next guy....but many claims about Mormonism made in this thread are things which very few average Mormons actually believe.....and there are some things which are somewhere between blatant deceptions and outright lies about them. Mormonism has actually evolved significantly over the years and, while they won't directly say X prophet was wrong and we no longer believe what they said, in practice they have abandoned many of those earlier teachings so quoting random early Prophets just makes you look like a moron.

Don't lower yourself to their level.

 

[Wafflecakes]

No it isn't.

1. The Mormon "God the Father" isn't the Creator of all; he's just a human who made good and got a planet to play with. 2. The Mormon "Jesus Christ" wasn't born of a virgin, he was born of a woman who got drugged and 3. Adam, who is really "God the Father", came down and had sex with her.

They use the words, but it's like pulling some Bedouin out of the desert and naming him "George W. Bush". 4. When they say "Savior", they don't mean someone who did all the work necessary to pull you out of a doomed path, they mean someone who did a lot but wasn't capable of handling the hard parts -- people have to do those themselves.

5. And the official teaching of the Mormon Church is that all the Creeds and Confessions held by Christians are utterly false. That means they don't believe in "God the Father, Maker of Heaven and Earth" or in "Jesus Christ, his only Son", and so on.

Ugh can't believe I am in a position to defend the Mormon church......interesting shift from my normal discussions. I in no way support the church....but just because I don't like them doesn't give me permission to lie and demonize them. Just because one Mormon official said something at one point does not make it Mormon doctrine.

Disclaimer (I don't actually support Mormon doctrine at all and think it is a load of shit...however seeing as I spent 6 years going to seminary/institute throughout highschool and college as well as having a devout family and my father as a Bishop I do think I have greater knowledge of the faith than the average joe)

1. This has been extrapolated from other Mormon doctrines .... and honestly its a reasonable interpretation. However, has never been a widely accepted theory and has NEVER been taught as doctrine on a churchwide level.

2. There may be a quote from some random Mormon wacko that says this. However, this version of events has NEVER been supported by the church itself or its membership and comes close to being a complete lie to make Mormons look bad.

3. Lol Adam is god? Another lie about Mormon doctrine. You could interview 10,000 devout Mormons and every last one would laugh at you.

4. No clue what you are even saying here.....but from your track record I can assume its BS. Mormons very much believe is a Christ who suffered to pave the way for humanity to return to heaven. When it comes to the biblical version of events in Christs life the Mormon church is VERY similar to other mainstream faiths. The main difference is that Mormons tend to focus on the suffering in the garden of garden of Gethsemane over what occurred on the cross.

5. How can you be so right and so wrong at the same time? Yes they do believe that all other faiths are incorrect and they believe they are the true faith. They believe that you must be more than just a "good person" to go to heaven. However, they don't believe that people that are not Mormons will be doomed to hell at all..... They also don't reject that others also believe in christ/god.....they simply believe that they have a flawed understanding



As to posts about the mountain meadows massacre. If you posted the details it would be even more disgusting. A true tragedy. However, there is NO evidence at all on any level that the church itself had ANY hand in this attack so I don't see how it is pertinent at all to....anything. It was people who committed this tragedy not Mormons....the church is no more responsible for the event than any other religion is when its members commit horrendous acts.

 

[Stardreamer]

Religious Tolerance .org is the source I go to for information on other religions without the bias. Here is the root of their section on the LDS Restorationist movement.

The LDS Restorationist movement, including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

 

[Stardreamer]

Of course the whole whose religion is the weirdest is not going to be answered in this life.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnsLzHYRtts"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnsLzHYRtts[/ame]

 

[bankside]

It's pretty clear to me that Mormons are no more Christians than Christians are Jews.

Once you[STRIKE] invent your own testament[/STRIKE] discover a new testament by reading runestones in a magic hat, it separates you from the religion before it.

That's why followers of the new testament are not called Jews despite also accepting the old testament as part of divine revelation.

That's why Muslims are not called Christians despite accepting the old and new testaments as divinely inspired, if not inerrant.

This is fairly simple stuff. And this new religion espoused by your candidate is pretty wackjob. And certainly highly political in its homophobia.

 

[Wafflecakes]

It's pretty clear to me that Mormons are no more Christians than Christians are Jews.

Once you[STRIKE] invent your own testament[/STRIKE] discover a new testament by reading runestones in a magic hat, it separates you from the religion before it.

Really?

Because other religions are based on fact eh? No, their lies were just made up longer ago.......How stupid.


If Jews want to call themselves Christian and vice versa then more power to them. Labels of who is and who isn't Christian and pointless and meaningless. Mormons consider themselves christian. What give ANYONE the right to say otherwise?

 

[Stardreamer]

What about Jews for Jesus?

Look they all recognize the scriptures from the before so they are all tied together by Abraham and are thus all "Abrahamic Religions"

 

[bankside]

Really?

Because other religions are based on fact eh?

Religions are based on fact; yes of course - just not the facts that their adherents are willing to acknowledge. The prime fact being "profit margin." Other facts include "the tendency of non-experts to jump to conclusions" and "the overwhelming temptation to exploit those people using unquestionable myth and by playing on tribal instincts, fear, loneliness, despair, and the beauty of stained glass."

Now lets go point by point:

If Jews want to call themselves Christian and vice versa then more power to them.

Why?

Labels of who is and who isn't Christian and pointless and meaningless.

If it is pointless and meaningless then they shouldn't mind if I define it for them. If they do mind, then you are mistaken and it is of significance. As a speaker of the English language, I therefore demand my equal say in defining what these words mean.

Mormons consider themselves christian.

Soviets considered themselves democratic.

What give ANYONE the right to say otherwise?

I'd say "The faculty of thought." More specifically, if some group of people get to say what they are, then we can infer they get to say what they are not. Under your paradigm, Christians can say they "are Christians but Mormons are separate." Because what gives ANYONE the right to tell a Christian they are the same thing as a Mormon? How DARE anyone tell a Christian they have to be lumped in with the Mormons???!!!

In my paradigm, people don't get to define their own words; we have to work at it together, and we have to give our individual consent through our everyday speech to the meaning of a word. And I don't consent to calling a Mormon a Christian, for the reasons noted above.

 

[Kulindahr]

Ugh can't believe I am in a position to defend the Mormon church......interesting shift from my normal discussions. I in no way support the church....but just because I don't like them doesn't give me permission to lie and demonize them. Just because one Mormon official said something at one point does not make it Mormon doctrine.

If a 'prophet' taught it, it's doctrine.

1. This has been extrapolated from other Mormon doctrines .... and honestly its a reasonable interpretation. However, has never been a widely accepted theory and has NEVER been taught as doctrine on a churchwide level.

It was taught by at least one of the "apostles' (I used to know his name).

2. There may be a quote from some random Mormon wacko that says this. However, this version of events has NEVER been supported by the church itself or its membership and comes close to being a complete lie to make Mormons look bad.

3. Lol Adam is god? Another lie about Mormon doctrine. You could interview 10,000 devout Mormons and every last one would laugh at you.

These are one item. They're known as the "Doctrine of Adam-God", which was taught by Brigham Young.

4. No clue what you are even saying here.....but from your track record I can assume its BS. Mormons very much believe is a Christ who suffered to pave the way for humanity to return to heaven. When it comes to the biblical version of events in Christs life the Mormon church is VERY similar to other mainstream faiths. The main difference is that Mormons tend to focus on the suffering in the garden of garden of Gethsemane over what occurred on the cross.

"Paved the way" is right -- but people are still supposed to earn it. That throws out any actual concept of a Savior.

5. How can you be so right and so wrong at the same time? Yes they do believe that all other faiths are incorrect and they believe they are the true faith. They believe that you must be more than just a "good person" to go to heaven. However, they don't believe that people that are not Mormons will be doomed to hell at all..... They also don't reject that others also believe in christ/god.....they simply believe that they have a flawed understanding

That's not what Joseph Smith claimed the angel told him. God's messenger proclaimed to him that all their creeds and doctrines were wrong:

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight...." -- Joseph Smith

If "all their creeds were an abomination", then this is abomination:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ His Only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit...."

The heavenly messenger didn't tell Smith there was a"flawed understanding", he said the creeds were an abomination. So that snippet of the Apostles Creed, according to Mormon doctrine, is an abomination.

 

[Wafflecakes]

You show such an ignorance for religion and the way the chiurch works it is pointless arguing with you.

Its very obvious that you are very wrapped up in hating the church and distorting its doctrine to make a point. Essentially your entire argument collapses if you stop considering that ANYTHING ANY prophet EVER said is 100% doctrine. Which I have already stated is not really the case....the church won't come out directly and ever say they were wrong......but in practice all this bullshit you bring up has been completely rejected by the church today.

So keep on lieing to yourself and others by insisting that "is one person claimed it at one point in time so it is doctrine"....more power to you. Its depressing that someone could be so deluded about the church that they would make me.....who hates the church with a passion that is all consuming....defend it.

Your only decent arguments were against 4 and 5 are the only ones not completely based on distortion. For 4 I think the arrangement is irrelevant and semantics...the doctrine itself may be more along the lines of "earning" your way into heaven more that other churches....but how many other churches REALLY believe that you can just float by doing nothing and get into heaven....the answer....not many. So how are they really that different.

On 5 you have a reasonablish argument....and there and people throughout the church with that attitude. However, it is dieing out and within a generation my guess is it will be gone.

Remember Scripture are words...... doctrine are the PEOPLES and CHURCH ORGANIZATIONS interpretation of those words as they put them into practice and your portrayals of doctrine are out and out lies in that NO ONE espouses those policies and lines of thinking anymore. As I said they will never come out and SAY that they don't believe something a prophet said because that would undermine their faith as a whole (which boils down to whether the church is true or not....which is another discussion entirely) but for all intents and purposes they have been removed from "doctrine".