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Is this fighting homophobia or just being over-sensitive?!

Homosexuality is not about acting, or dancing, effeminately. They are separate issues. We all know that many gay guys have issues with men who act camp or effeminately too. Nigel has never said he has a problem with guys wanting to fuck each other. That is what homosexuality is really about.
That may be all homosexuality is about, but it's not all that gay is about. There's a lot more on the table here than what we do in the privacy of our own homes (or backrooms or sex clubs or whatever)... this is about our right to behave as we see fit regardless of what the Majority thinks of it. It's about our right to be who we are in public, the same right they already have.

So maybe effeminacy is a separate issue from homsexuality...but it is still a gay issue, it's still part of the fight. And it's an issue that gets my knickers in a bunch whenever someone makes dismissive comments about effeminacy, as if it were something funny and pitiable and beneath one's dignity.

You know, I've always been a big fan of ballroom dancing because it does give houseroom to effeminacy without being a condescending burlesque or a demeaning lampoon. Like classical ballet, it uses the male body as a graceful and beautiful thing rather than strong utilitarian object.

I think it's sad that heterosexual dancers feel they must "butch it up" so that people won't think they're gay, as if being gay was just about the worst thing you could possibly be. That's what all this distaste for effeminacy is all about, you know: appearing to be gay. It's fine to be theoretically gay, having your homosex behind closed doors where we can't see you, or bringing your boyfriend to dinner just like a straight couple; but God forbid someone thinks they might be one of these filthy lowlife homos.

It's not just what people say, it's what they mean, perhaps without their own conscious knowledge, when they say it. This guy has a problem with effeminacy because it challenges his heterocentrist ideas of behavior...that's most people's problem with it. Whether they say so aloud or not, such people actually believe deep down that heterosexual gender roles are the only correct model... and further that the feminine role is lower than the masculine.

And they'll never discover (and hopefully correct) this thinking in themselves unless we call them out on their lightest least-considered remarks.
 
Personally, I've never seen ballroom dancing as a terribly masculine enterprise to begin with. Yes the males lead and support, but twirling around the dance floor in a garish costume looks theatrical and affected, whether the paring is male/female or male/male. The same with figure skating. So I don't think the "effeminate" charge against this particular couple is fair.
 
Personally, I've never seen ballroom dancing as a terribly masculine enterprise to begin with. Yes the males lead and support, but twirling around the dance floor in a garish costume looks theatrical and affected, whether the paring is male/female or male/male. The same with figure skating. So I don't think the "effeminate" charge against this particular couple is fair.

That's one of the reasons both sports seem to have rampant internal homophobia. And it IS homophobia, because they don't want anyone to appear too effeminate, and they don't particularly like it when someone is really out there publicly. They don't want to be pigeon-holed as gay sports. They're afraid of the stereotype.
 
It's about our right to be who we are in public, the same right they already have.

You can't pigeonhole that - we are as they are. Some of us are fat, some thin. Some tall, some short. Some effeminate, some not. You can't annex everything which any gay person has ever been or might ever be and claim it as a gay issue.

I think it's sad that heterosexual dancers feel they must "butch it up" so that people won't think they're gay, as if being gay was just about the worst thing you could possibly be. That's what all this distaste for effeminacy is all about, you know: appearing to be gay. It's fine to be theoretically gay, having your homosex behind closed doors where we can't see you, or bringing your boyfriend to dinner just like a straight couple; but God forbid someone thinks they might be one of these filthy lowlife homos.

I'm not sure you have too many grounds to complain about here - I've seen Americans vehemently deny that they support Republicans, say, and don't want to be associated with them and nobody bats an eyelid. But if anyone doesn't want to be perceived as gay we all have a meltdown. There's nothing wrong with being gay, fine. There's nothing wrong with being a Republican, either. On paper.

This guy has a problem with effeminacy because it challenges his heterocentrist ideas of behavior...that's most people's problem with it. Whether they say so aloud or not, such people actually believe deep down that heterosexual gender roles are the only correct model... and further that the feminine role is lower than the masculine.

Nature is full of examples where this is the case. Most vertebrate animals which exist as a pack will have an alpha male; typically the big strong one. Do any species have an alpha female?

Beyond that, the males are typically bigger and stronger than the females. You're challenging evolution, here, not people's perceptions.

-d-
 
However, here are his Twitter comments;

<snip>

I wholeheartedly apologize for my Brokeback Ballroom Tweet. It was insensitive, ignorant and stupid. I have upset a number of dear friends."

Both Fox and Lythgoe have apologised. . . sorta (note the blue text):

Understandably, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation lodged a complaint to Fox; and the network and Lythgoe both filed apologies on the matter, though they ring a little hollow, if you ask me.

“The judges of So You Think You Can Dance critique auditioners and contestants on their overall performance, stage presence, technique and a wide range of characteristics,” the network release said, according to Afterelton.com. “All dancers are aware when they audition they will be subject to the judge’s opinions. We apologize if any viewers were offended by their remarks.”

Said Lythgoe, “I sincerely regret the fact that I have upset people with the poor word choices and comments I made both during the taping of So You Think You Can Dance audition and on my [Twitter] status update. I am not homophobic and it was extremely upsetting to be classed as such.”

Full Report: http://tvguide.sympatico.msn.ca/TVNews/Articles/090525_lythgoe_not_homophobic_GD
 
I don't think Nigel should apologise for the Brokeback comment. Not at all. It was a jokey quip and should just be taken as such. Some militant gays just use any excuse to leap on their soap box and start spouting all kinds of righteous nonsense.

The gay scene is full of harsh judgements and blatant insults. Bitchy, non-PC humour is rife. It's ok for us to dish it out but then get hyper-sensitive about flippant little Brokeback quips? Come on now, chill out and get a SOH.
 
You can't pigeonhole that - we are as they are. Some of us are fat, some thin. Some tall, some short. Some effeminate, some not. You can't annex everything which any gay person has ever been or might ever be and claim it as a gay issue.
If he were discussing effeminacy by itself in a standard boy/girl competitive ballroom context, rather than in a same-sex context with a noticeably gay connotation, it would be a different thing. Yes, I'd get angry, because I'm effeminate and I'm entirely unwilling to be pissed on for it, even if only indirectly... piss is piss whether it comes from above or from the side, whether it was aimed at you or not.

But that would by my fight, and all you macho fags may be excused. However, the context of these comments, the statement that "the audience" wouldn't be comfortable with two men dancing ballroom, the all-too-familiar-to-us comment of "you should try it with a girl, you might like it"... and then the later references to Brokeback Mountain as if it were a comedy rather than a serious drama about very real and painful issues... it certainly sounded dismissive and contemptuous of gays.

I will agree with Nigel that the perfomance in question was perfectly ghastly: it was poorly coreographed, making the worst use of both bodies, and didn't appear to have been rehearsed very thoroughly; the lifts were particularly clunky, the hips were erratic, the footwork unspeakable, and both dancers looked strangely heavy in their connections; these guys were clearly relying on the novelty of two men doing a ballroom dance to carry them through (it certainly got them a hell of a lot more attention than the rest of the contestants that night), and didn't put enough thought into making a great dance routine.

There, you see, I just rated their performance in more words than Nigel did, and I didn't once use any culturally weighted phrases or references that would get anybody angry (except maybe the dancers).

But here's the main issue I'm having: with the exception of one (completely graceless) bootie-bump toward the end of the routine, neither of those men were dancing in an effeminate manner. Those hip-twists and wrist-flicks were completely bog-standard samba movements, and I've seen them done much more flamboyantly by champion dancers. There was absolutely no reason to bring up effeminacy at all, and that's what makes me feel that "effeminate" was a barely-veiled euphemism for "gay."

I'm not sure you have too many grounds to complain about here - I've seen Americans vehemently deny that they support Republicans, say, and don't want to be associated with them and nobody bats an eyelid. But if anyone doesn't want to be perceived as gay we all have a meltdown. There's nothing wrong with being gay, fine. There's nothing wrong with being a Republican, either. On paper.
Well, I think there is something wrong with being Republican, because the party has been hijacked by self-interested cadres who use misdirection and fear to distract their adherents from what's actually being done by their leaders. But that's my opinion and one I wouldn't go on television and air, unless the context was political, and certainly not in an entertainment context.

And if I did, I would expect to be jumped upon in cleats by the pundits of Fox News as well as a few members of my own family (because Republican-bashing does indeed prompt eyelid-batting; just not so much in the gay quarters: one isn't expected to defend one's enemies, you know).

But you know what, a lot of people do assume I'm a Republican because I collect elephants. I have shirts with elephants on them, jewelry with elephants, elephant figurines all over my desk at work and crowding the surfaces of my home. I just love elephants.

And when people ask me if I'm a Republican, I say "It's not political, I just really like elephants." I'm not going to stop collecting elephants and displaying them because there's a Republican connotation. I'm not going to eschew elephants and start collecting donkeys. I'm not going to put a disclaimer sign on each of my elephants stating that I am in fact a Democrat with Progressive and Libertarian leanings. I'm not going to answer a question about my motive in collecting elephants with an impassioned "Oh, God, no! I wouldn't be a Republican if you paid me," in a tone implying that being a Republican is just about the worst thing you can be.

This is what some people are doing: they deplore people assuming they are gay because they're dancers; so they say "Oh, I'm not gay, see? I'm dancing with a girl! I don't flick my wrists! I'm a manly man just like you, not one of those filthy faggots!" when what they should be saying is "Oh, grow up, you knuckle-dragging troglodyte, what the fuck business is it of yours?" Unless it's impinging in their ability to get laid, why does it matter what random strangers think their sexual preference might be? Unless, of course, they think there's something wrong with that assumed sexual preference.

I mean, do you get pissy if someone assumes you're straight? I don't (though I will admit to get a momentary shiver of ick when a woman hits on me). What does it matter, unless I believe deep down that there was something wrong with it?

Nature is full of examples where this is the case. Most vertebrate animals which exist as a pack will have an alpha male; typically the big strong one. Do any species have an alpha female? Beyond that, the males are typically bigger and stronger than the females. You're challenging evolution, here, not people's perceptions.
Yeah, except for one problem: we're not pack animals. We are people. Yes, we still have many pack/tribe instincts, but on top of and (ideally) controlling our instincts are our ability to reason, to imagine and to maintain abstract thought. We do not supress that which is genetically weak by eating the runts; we don't ostracize our elderly; we don't fight to the death for dominance of our pack; we don't stringently avoid other packs. We just aren't wolves, nor are we apes.

Yes, the alpha of a dog pack is always male; and though I'm fairly sure that some of the less sexually dimorphous primate species have alpha females, I'm not an expert so I can't really say. But in a realm where strength is less an issue than brain-power, i.e., human society, there are alpha females: numerous ancient societies were purely matriarchal, women have been proven to make good academic and business and government leaders, and in Western society women are more often than not the alphas of their family units. And while the average man is bigger and stronger than the average woman, this is not always the case... there are lots of men who are smaller and weaker than lots of women.

Furthermore, though nature has assigned certain roles to the separate genders, nature does not make one gender better than another. A society that deplores feminine behavior in men but rewards masculine behavior in women is making a clear statement that it believes women are less valuable than men. Behind any depredation of effeminacy is a germ of misogyny, particularly if there isn't a balancing depredation of... what? There isn't even a word for women portraying masculine attributes, certainly not a word that carries such a freight of derision.

As in nature, ballroom dancing and ballet assign separate roles for male and female based on physical differences; but those roles and the very form of the dance are more based in social expectations. Men and women dance in pairs because that is the social paradigm, evolved out of ancient precivilized mating ritual dancing; because of this, the world of traditional dance is terribly sexist, putting more focus on the brighter, higher-flying females while the males tend to get treated as moving pedestals. This is not so much so in singles or group dancing, tap and hip-hop and whatnot, where men are actually allowed to shine more.

But while it would be silly to expect a small female to lift a much larger male, it is only the social expectation that says that two men don't dance together or two women don't dance together or a larger woman and a smaller man don't dance together.

My question is: who the hell wants to live in a world where social expectation is considered written in stone, unchangeable and unchanged? We don't live in any such world, and society can only grow and change when the assumptions and expectations are challenged.

People aren't used to seeing two men dance in a manner that is usually danced by a man and a woman. Well, so the fuck what? Thirty years ago we weren't used to eating food out of a microwave, twenty years ago we weren't used to talking on phones while walking down the street, ten years ago we weren't used to endless internet access. Yes, people adapt to technology fast than to new social paradigms; but people do adapt, if you challenge them to adapt, and don't take their bullshit recidivism as legitimate caution.

These challenges are issued by people standing up and saying "That was an asshole thing to say/do, maybe you ought to examine your thinking and consider if you really want to be that kind of person." That's why GLAAD exists, it's why the NAACP exists, it's why a lot of other such organizations exist. Without organizations like this, we would have no progress and our civil liberties would be eroded right out from under us.
 
^These are mostly valid points, and I appreciate, as always, the thought and passion you put into your responses. Without taking the piss even slightly, I can say I would be more than happy for you to carry any flag on my behalf.

There, you see, I just rated their performance in more words than Nigel did, and I didn't once use any culturally weighted phrases or references that would get anybody angry (except maybe the dancers).

Yes, but a.) you're more literate and well-spoken than he, and b.) you've had days to consider your response.

But here's the main issue I'm having: with the exception of one (completely graceless) bootie-bump toward the end of the routine, neither of those men were dancing in an effeminate manner. Those hip-twists and wrist-flicks were completely bog-standard samba movements, and I've seen them done much more flamboyantly by champion dancers. There was absolutely no reason to bring up effeminacy at all, and that's what makes me feel that "effeminate" was a barely-veiled euphemism for "gay."

It probably was; but perhaps he thought it more polite than saying "you look too gay and it's not a gay dance traditionally."

Perhaps, at the end of the day, it's purely about the look of the thing. I mean, you react to what you're used to. This is why something like Jesus Christ Superstar took as much flak as it did - a musical version of the Bible? - and why new "interpretations" of old movies draw more ire than praise (not only because they're usually irredeemably shit) because they are perhaps deemed as unnecessary.

This is what some people are doing: they deplore people assuming they are gay because they're dancers; so they say "Oh, I'm not gay, see? I'm dancing with a girl! I don't flick my wrists! I'm a manly man just like you, not one of those filthy faggots!" when what they should be saying is "Oh, grow up, you knuckle-dragging troglodyte, what the fuck business is it of yours?"

Perhaps the only people in the entire history of the world who can get away with a knowing, benevolent smile hinting at the wisdom coming from their years of experience and hinting more so at the inexperience coming from the other people involved are Nelson Mandela, Ang San Suu Kyi and Ghandi. The rest of us, unfortunately, have to rely on getting our message across as verbally and clearly as possible.

What does it matter, unless I believe deep down that there was something wrong with it?

Bingo. But for all our free speech and free thinking and free whatever, we still don't like people having an opinion which disagrees with ours.

Some days you're the windshield etc.

Yeah, except for one problem: we're not pack animals. We are people.

So? We believe we're better. Are we? That's getting into philosophy.

We do not supress that which is genetically weak by eating the runts

Perhaps we should.

We don't ostracize our elderly; we don't fight to the death for dominance of our pack; we don't stringently avoid other packs.

Dude, what planet do you live on?

Everywhere you look there are borders, for one. Everywhere you look there are social groupings - some innate (race), others by circumstance (nationality), others by CHOICE - religion, politics, everything else. You don't think there is some sort of inherent kinship in being a Barcelona fan, in celebrating a big win with all your fellows around the world? In being a Trekkie? A gamer? These are all self-imposed ostracisms, one way or another.

Half these groups spend a lifetime trying to annihilate the other half. If you think for even one second that we aren't pack animals with all those traits intact and in use, you are sorely, sorely mistaken.

As in nature, ballroom dancing and ballet assign separate roles for male and female based on physical differences; but those roles and the very form of the dance are more based in social expectations. Men and women dance in pairs because that is the social paradigm, evolved out of ancient precivilized mating ritual dancing; because of this, the world of traditional dance is terribly sexist, putting more focus on the brighter, higher-flying females while the males tend to get treated as moving pedestals. This is not so much so in singles or group dancing, tap and hip-hop and whatnot, where men are actually allowed to shine more.

These challenges are issued by people standing up and saying "That was an asshole thing to say/do, maybe you ought to examine your thinking and consider if you really want to be that kind of person."

Again, bingo.

Perhaps someone should choreograph a new dance, between 2 guys or girls, instead of riding roughshod over an existing one and expecting people to like it. That way nobody will have any leg to stand on when they complain about it, and you can make them examine their reflex response far more objectively than when you try to change tradition.

My question is: who the hell wants to live in a world where social expectation is considered written in stone, unchangeable and unchanged? We don't live in any such world, and society can only grow and change when the assumptions and expectations are challenged.

Agreed. But I'd rather people put change where it was needed instead of getting pissy about an unusual samba.

Well, so the fuck what? Thirty years ago we weren't used to eating food out of a microwave, twenty years ago we weren't used to talking on phones while walking down the street, ten years ago we weren't used to endless internet access. Yes, people adapt to technology fast than to new social paradigms; but people do adapt, if you challenge them to adapt, and don't take their bullshit recidivism as legitimate caution.

People adapt to things which benefit them faster - not only technology. We can see the benefit in changing the social paradigm because it affects us so greatly; the man on the street who is concerned primarily with feeding his family and getting from one day/week/month to the next can not.

I maintain, we cannot afford to throw our toys every single time there is even the slightest perceived insult, for something the man in the street - the very person we are trying to get on our side, right? - will consider insignificant. Eventually, the man in the street is going to get tired of hearing it.

-d-
 
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