The Original Gay Porn Community - Free Gay Movies and Photos, Gay Porn Site Reviews and Adult Gay Forums

  • Welcome To Just Us Boys - The World's Largest Gay Message Board Community

    In order to comply with recent US Supreme Court rulings regarding adult content, we will be making changes in the future to require that you log into your account to view adult content on the site.
    If you do not have an account, please register.
    REGISTER HERE - 100% FREE / We Will Never Sell Your Info

    PLEASE READ: To register, turn off your VPN (iPhone users- disable iCloud); you can re-enable the VPN after registration. You must maintain an active email address on your account: disposable email addresses cannot be used to register.

Jesus and "Family Values"

I remain focussed on the issue at hand. Your initial statement presuming to speak on behalf of some scholars, was later corrected by you, and you attributed that claim to a named scholar. You made this change only after I confronted your statement.
No, no. My reference of Ehrman was not my attributing the statement to him. I merely provided him as an example, which I thought was obvious considering the excerpt I provided in my inital post here.

I made that statement because I have read various books by different, highly celebrated N.T. scholars and have listened to several lectures in my classes on the subject. Do I have a poll that I conducted? No. Do I have a poll that shows the majority of astronomers believe in, say, Cosmological Redshift serving as evidence for the Big Bang? No. And yet it wouldn't be an outrageous claim to make given what can be inferred from a little light investigating into a few details available to any of us. I then provided you with a Wiki quote not to "backtrack" and toss the ball to someone else but to show you that this is also agreed upon by others. The derailment was pointless.

Enough said on this matter.
You keep saying that and yet you still reply. ;)
 
No, no. My reference of Ehrman was not my attributing the statement to him. I merely provided him as an example, which I thought was obvious considering the excerpt I provided in my inital post here.

I made that statement because I have read various books by different, highly celebrated N.T. scholars and have listened to several lectures in my classes on the subject. Do I have a poll that I conducted? No. Do I have a poll that shows the majority of astronomers believe in, say, Cosmological Redshift serving as evidence for the Big Bang? No. And yet it wouldn't be an outrageous claim to make given what can be inferred from a little light investigating into a few details. I then provided you with a Wiki quote not to "backtrack" and toss the ball to someone else but to show you that this is also agreed upon by others. The derailment was pointless.


You keep saying that and yet you still reply. ;)


This is your initial statement:

"Most scholars will agree that Jesus is best understood as a Jewish apocalypticist."

Which YOU superseded by your reference to Ehrman, after me confronting YOUR initial claim.

You can continue to shadow box, and I will continue to repeat your clearly written words.

No misunderstanding. No mis-construction. The evidence speaks for itself.

Your attempts at sophist re construction is lamentable.

Admit that you mis wrote, and move on.
 
Which YOU superseded by your reference to Ehrman, after me confronting YOUR initial claim.
I can somewhat see how you think that I was trying to pin the quote to Ehrman afterward but that's not what I was getting at. When I said
I cited Ehrman in my initial post and only then [...]
you can see that in red that I said "in my initial post" meaning the excerpt on family values; especially since the family values excerpt has to do with said apocalypical view.
So to recap:
  • I provided an excerpt from Ehrman's textbook regarding family values through the lens of apocalypticism;
  • Later I made a statement regarding majority consensus on Jesus being viewed as an apocalyptic prophet (a much more broader view than my initial family values excerpt);
  • You understood this latter statement to somehow mean that I spoke on behalf of the majority of scholars;
  • I said I wasn't, gave an analogy to show why I thought I wasn't, and we derailed the thread on this pointless issue;
  • Even Kulindahr pointed out the absurdity in this.

Well done :=D: Columbo would be proud.

Admit that you mis wrote, and move on.
I already asked you how I miswrote it so as to see how I make myself sound as though I'm speaking for other scholars and you just continue to copy and paste this quote as though repeating it qualifies as further clarification (if it didn't work the first time why did you think it would work a second time? Or a third or fourth?):

"Most scholars will agree that Jesus is best understood as a Jewish apocalypticist."

Should I have written it as "As I am aware, most scholars have agreed that Jesus is best understood as a Jewish apocalypicist" or would that still be wrong/controversial somehow? Because this latter version is what I meant all along (not attributing it to Ehrman or anyone else). I think it should be obvious to anyone that I meant to say what I stated two sentences before that:

"The Modified Two Source Hypothesis is the most widely held hypothesis by the majority of scholars of which the Q source is mentioned."
 
Should I have written it as "As I am aware, most scholars have agreed that Jesus is best understood as a Jewish apocalypicist"

Your awareness is not easily evidenced. For you do not know most scholars to be able to make this statement.
 
kallipolis, how do you define "know". Are you basing this concept on "personally knowing" scholars. If that is the case the vast majority of debate on any kind of topic that has philosophical leanings are bunk.
 
kallipolis, how do you define "know". Are you basing this concept on "personally knowing" scholars. If that is the case the vast majority of debate on any kind of topic that has philosophical leanings are bunk.

The matter is not one of how I define the word know. I am not the poster claiming to know what others are saying, or thinking on any given matter.

I always speak for myself.
 
The stop heckling over how he phrased it. If you are heckling over the phrasing then the assumption I have to make is that you have no points left to make, so you are attacking word choice.
 
The stop heckling over how he phrased it. If you are heckling over the phrasing then the assumption I have to make is that you have no points left to make, so you are attacking word choice.

Your orders, are duly noted. Sir!

Your assumption, is not my reality.

It is not I, who is referring to most scholars, to provide support for their opinion.
poolerboy does not know most scholars to be able make this statement.

A reasonable man relies upon his own arguments to support his opinion. Without need to impress with words that inform us that most scholars support his opinion.
 
But I am sure that your captioned expert did not conduct an anti theist campaign, in tandem with his Biblical lecture.

Not in the least. And he was so enthused by the material, so impressed by the profundity of John's thought and clearly enjoying expounding on it, most of us entirely forgot his opening remarks before he even finished commenting on the preamble.
 
The stop heckling over how he phrased it. If you are heckling over the phrasing then the assumption I have to make is that you have no points left to make, so you are attacking word choice.

:=D: :=D: :=D:

Kalli, just leave it. The trail you two are leaving here looks a lot like the kind left when my buddy's dog catches a rodent, and plays with it along the way before killing it, then plays with it while it's dead, so that by the time she's brought it back so he can say he's proud of her, there are bits and pieces of fur and blood and flesh dribbled across the landscape, and what she presents him with isn't at all attractive.
 
:=D: :=D: :=D:

Kalli, just leave it. The trail you two are leaving here looks a lot like the kind left when my buddy's dog catches a rodent, and plays with it along the way before killing it, then plays with it while it's dead, so that by the time she's brought it back so he can say he's proud of her, there are bits and pieces of fur and blood and flesh dribbled across the landscape, and what she presents him with isn't at all attractive.

I am well aware of the personality condition that I am confronting, when responding to such posts. I have been in training on this board for over five years. They come and they discharge their venom and then they leave.

I am an old hand at this game. As you are well aware.
 
I am well aware of the personality condition that I am confronting [...] They come and they discharge their venom and then they leave.
o_O

So submitting a critical perspective on religion is "discharging venom" now? As I recall, I kept my criticisms directed at the topics discussed whereas you decided to go the way of sending attacks against the person with indirect, snide comments (this goes for encounters outside this particular thread mind you).

I was going to ask what Jesus would have done in this situation, but then I remembered he would often resort to namecalling at those he disputed with calling them "fools" and "vipers." I guess if I can't expect civility from the Prince of Peace, what could I possibly come to expect from his admirers? However, I'm willing to take a page from his teachings when he's in a much better mood and forgive you.
 
This just in: A family value isn't good if it screws over other people.
 
I was going to ask what Jesus would have done in this situation, but then I remembered he would often resort to namecalling at those he disputed with calling them "fools" and "vipers." I guess if I can't expect civility from the Prince of Peace, what could I possibly come to expect from his admirers? However, I'm willing to take a page from his teachings when he's in a much better mood and forgive you.

If you examine the places where He did so, it's always when their arrogance or hypocrisy were dissing others and exalting themselves. A verse from Godspell catches the flavor:

Alas, alas for you
Lawyers and pharisees
Hypocrits that you are
Sure that the kingdom of Heaven awaits you
You will not venture half so far
Other men who might enter the gates you
Keep from passing through!
Drag them down with you!
You snakes, you viper's brood
You cannot escape being Devil's food!
 
o_O

So submitting a critical perspective on religion is "discharging venom" now? As I recall, I kept my criticisms directed at the topics discussed whereas you decided to go the way of sending attacks against the person with indirect, snide comments (this goes for encounters outside this particular thread mind you).

I was going to ask what Jesus would have done in this situation, but then I remembered he would often resort to namecalling at those he disputed with calling them "fools" and "vipers." I guess if I can't expect civility from the Prince of Peace, what could I possibly come to expect from his admirers? However, I'm willing to take a page from his teachings when he's in a much better mood and forgive you.

Did I name you as the one who discharged venom?

I was referring to the poster who issued me with orders.
His personality condition is well documented on this board.;)
 
An excerpt from The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings, Fourth Edition:

One of the hardest things for modern people who are interested in Jesus to realize is that he lived in a completely different culture from ours, with a foreign set of cultural values and norms—so much so that people commonly claim that he did not (or rather could not) have meant what he said. Nowhere is this more clear than in the area known today as "family values."

Since the modern sense of family values seems to be so good and wholesome, it is only natural for people to assume that Jesus too must have taught them. But did he? It is striking that in our earliest traditions Jesus does not seem to place a high priority on the family. Consider the words preserved in Q: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters and even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple" (Luke 14:26; Matt 10:37). A person must hate his or her family? The same word is used, strikingly, in the saying independently preserved in the Gospel of Thomas: "The one who does not hate his father and mother will not be worthy to be my disciple" (Gosp. Thom. 55). If we understand "hate" here to mean something like "despise in comparison to" or "have nothing to do with," then the saying makes sense. Parents, siblings, spouses, and even one's own children were to be of no importance in comparison with the coming kingdom.

This may help explain Jesus' reaction to his own family. For there are clear signs not only that Jesus' family rejected his message during his public ministry, but that he in turn spurned them publicly (independently attested in Mark 3:31–34 and Gosp. Thom. 99).

And Jesus clearly saw the familial rifts that would be created when someone became committed to his message of the coming kingdom:

You think that I have come to bring peace on earth; not peace, I tell you, but division. For from now on there will be five people in one house, divided among themselves: three against two and two against three; a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother; a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law (Luke 12:51–53; Matt 10:34–46; independently attested in Gosp. Thom. 16).​

And family tensions would be heightened immediately before the end of the age, when "a brother will betray his brother to death, and a father his child, and children will rise up against their parents and kill them" (Mark 13:12).

These "anti-family" traditions are too widely attested in our sources to be ignored (they are found in Mark, Q, and Thomas, for example), and suggest that Jesus did not support what we today might think of as family values. But why not? Could it be that Jesus was not ultimately interested in establishing a good society and doing what was necessary to maintain it? Remember: for him the end was coming soon, and the present social order was being called radically into question. What mattered were not strong family ties and the social institutions of this world. What mattered was the new thing that was coming, the future kingdom. And it was impossible to promote this teaching while trying to retain the present social structure. That would be like trying to put a new wine into old wineskins or trying to sew a new piece of cloth to an old garment. As any wine-master or seamstress could tell you, it just won't work. The wineskins would burst and the garment would tear. New wine and new cloth require new wineskins and new garments. The old is passing away and the new is almost here (Mark 2:18–22; Gosp. Thom. 47).

Jesus was saying the reality of everything that had come to pass, just as he said, the divisions happened and are still happening. He did not encourage that families should break apart by saying this but he was saying that when a family is divided in beliefs, especially in very strong spiritual beliefs, there would be divisions.

Jesus is teaching us that if we choose family above Him that we have ultimately chosen to NOT follow Him. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, anything and everything that got in the way of following his words, including your own selfish desires, would be less than discipleship. I myself will NEVER be a true disciple of Jesus Christ yet I do desire to do as much as I can for him even knowing how imperfect I am. To say that a Christian should stop being a Christian simply because he or she can never amount to Jesus or His disciples is just inadequate. First of all, His disciples were not perfect as we can see this by reading what some of them did during the times when they even followed Jesus.

Jesus did encourage us to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. This call to be perfect is a call for everyone to be the best they can be and then when you think you can't do any better, look for new ways to become better. Jesus is asking us to not see our selves as weak vessels of scum but to see ourselves as children of the Most High God YHWH (Yahweh).

Many families are torn in half or in different variations because some parts of the family convert and others do not. For anyone to accept that Jesus is more important than family, it takes a Christian because this is a motto taught by Christ. But to those families united in Christ, those NOT torn to bits by a sudden mid life conversion, those families are strong whole families for the most part. This doesn't mean that they will not struggle with personal issues because I assure you even the most Christian like families struggle with horrendous issues of life and addictions and every other thing out there that the average Joe might fall into.

When Jesus stated that families would betray each other to death in Mark 13, he is saying that for those that choose Christ or DENY him, the family that is divided WILL fall prone to violence and even betrayal to the very end of their lives. To the part of the family that despises Christianity, they would be half willing (sometimes more than willing) to turn in the ones in their family that DID follow Christ especially if the surroundings warranted turning in Christians for some reason.

For some reason or another, soon into the future, I do see this great betrayal happening world wide. Already it is happening in some parts of the world where being Christian is a mortal sin in some religions. It has been a problem in all the world but in variations. Soon, ALL religions will be cut off. ALL religions include Christianity. The Great Harlot spoken of in the Bible in the book of Revelations is speaking of world religion, particularly false religion. Any religion FUNDED by the governments of the world is FIRSTLY included because it will be the governments overall decision to "strike the harlot" and end world wide religions. One main way churches or other religions stay working is by financial funding and when the funding stops, a lot of churches will wither and die. Few churches in the world down right deny government money and involvement and believe it or not the Jehovah Witnesses are one of them. The outcome of the stopped funding will eventually be a dictatorial and mandatory religion and the way things are looking, it could very well evolve from the whole green movement of worshiping mother earth.

As for hatred to family for no reason...this is not what Jesus spoke of. He did not encourage hatred of family in the way that you propose it. It is also to recognize that as a Christian, Jesus' earthly family was simply that and the family that means more is the spiritual everlasting family. It is important however to love your family and respect them but if you have an option placed in front of you as a Christian to love family over Jesus or nothing at all, this is a tough decision for a Christian to make because what if it comes to the point where they hold a gun to your "unsaved" family members head and say, "Reject your false God or you're mother dies," and in this situation...even if I did anything...I'd feel like I should have died.




There was an old saying that I miss and my mom had a plaque on the wall that said:

The Family that prays together, stays together.


I like that saying and it reminds us that it is important to be united as a family because being divided is very common.
 
The fact that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet is easily supported imo.

1. He stated to several of his disciples that they would not "taste death" until they saw "the kingdom" of God. Some people claim the transfiguration accounts for this, but that is a serious stretch imo. What took place there was not the coming of the kingdom, it was simply Jesus displaying his full glory.

2. He stated on another occasion that "this generation" would not pass away until the kingdom came. Some people claim he was referring to a future generation, but the wording and context makes this a dubious claim imo.

3. He preached to the disciples to have a sense of urgency, as if the end were near. He told them to tell others this, and he spoke of the return in terms of the existing culture of that region (two people would be working in a field, etc). If he were not going to return for thousands of years, this contemporary urgency was simply unneeded.

4. He suggested that John might not die until he returned. Again, some claim this was only a suggestion so it didn't HAVE to happen, but taken in context with these other examples, it's the same underlying theme.
 
Back
Top