On-Topic JFK's Pre-War Germany Diary

[Jack Springer]

A very unusual thought process by JFK before the war while he traveled in Germany. He kept a diary that gives insights into his thoughts before WWII.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-Germany-Second-World-War.html#ixzz2U8UgC74P

'Fascism?' wrote the youthful president-to-be in one. 'The right thing for Germany.'

In another; 'What are the evils of fascism compared to communism?'

And on August 21, 1937 - two years before the war that would claim 50 million lives broke out - he wrote: 'The Germans really are too good - therefore people have ganged up on them to protect themselves.'

And in a line which seems directly plugged into the racial superiority line plugged by the Third Reich he wrote after travelling through the Rhineland: 'The Nordic races certainly seem to be superior to the Romans.' The future president's praise is now embarrassing in hindsight - a few years later he fought in War War Two against the Nazis and his elder brother Lt. Joseph Patrick 'Joe' Kennedy, Jr was killed.​

Other musings concern how great the autobahns were - 'the best roads in the world' - and how, having visited Hitler's Bavarian holiday home in Berchtesgaden and the tea house built on top of the mountain for him.

He declared; 'Who has visited these two places can easily imagine how Hitler will emerge from the hatred currently surrounding him to emerge in a few years as one of the most important personalities that ever lived.'​

I guess people change but it does make you wonder if he was serious about things like the US going to the moon .... might have been the drugs.

 

[palbert]

Oh, Jack, I so despair of you.

Aren't you the one who complains when GWB is brought up as misguided?

Going back a little far aren't you? Especially when those naïve observations were never reflected in his policies.

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

Hindsight is definitely 20/20.

Few things to remember when pointing fingers:

As misguided as it now seems, many people really DID see fascism as the only counter to the encroachment of Communism in Europe and they were more afraid of IT (they had SEEN its dangers already) than they were of fascism.

Important British and American visitors were given rather propagandist tours of the Rhineland to convince them of just this.

This was a full year before Kristallnacht.

JFK was BARELY 20 years old when he wrote this.

Jack, do you think this is proof that JFK was a closet Nazi sympathizer his entire life?

 

[T-Rexx]

What people fail to understand is that, at the time JFK wrote this, Fascism WAS the right thing for Germany. Kennedy was not endorsing Fascism as a desirable form of governance, he was acknowledging its effectiveness in getting things done for Germany.

If Hitler had not invaded Poland to start the chain of events that was WWII, he would today be remembered as the single greatest leader in all of German history. That is what Kennedy was observing, and it is an astute observation.

As for Kennedy's racism, he did seem able to overcome this very pervasive bias of his time. That is remarkable, especially considering that it persists almost universally to this day. There remains an attitude in Europe (and the USA) today that southern Europeans are an inferior race, unable to control their spending, corruption, or impulsive behaviors. Kennedy is remembered to history as a young man. It is well to remember that he was born in 1917. That an American of northern European extraction was able effectively to launch the civil rights movement in the USA is impressive. Even more impressive than if he had been Italian or Greek (in which case he could never have been elected president, of course).

Greatness in a politician does not devolve from the circumstances of his birth. It comes from his ability to recognize and reject "obvious" but incorrect "truths." It comes from his ability to understand the viewpoints of others unlike himself. One of the remarkable things about FDR was his extraordinary appreciation of the circumstances of poor people, even though he came from one of the richest families in America. One of the remarkable things about JFK was his extraordinary appreciation of the circumstances of black people, even though he was a white guy of northern European extraction.

Kennedy was a racist. That he was able to appreciate this fault within himself and leverage it to improve the lives of tens of millions of Americans is why we regard him as a great man today.

 

[rareboy]

Wow.

Kennedy wrote that?

Someone shoulda shot him.

So as a 20 year old travelling through pre-holocaust Germany...what you're saying is that he really demonstrated how irresponsible he was by not killing Hitler when he had the chance?

You do remember, don't you, that the US was rabidly isolationist up until it was attacked? And that it took heaven and earth to get support in the US to aid the European and British until the realities of a 1000 year German Reich became so vivid? Even then, the WASP and Irish Catholic America really wasn't too eager to save the Jews. Certainly Joe Sr. and his crowd made no bones about it.

I think the wonderful and remarkable thing is that these diaries were allowed to survive and provide a look at a young man's perspective in the years before the war because they reflect what so much of the world thought about Hitler and his push-back against Bolshevism..

 

[Jack Springer]

I'm not condemning JFK. I just thought it was interesting. I came across this last week and thought that someone, somewhere would talk about it ... but nothing.

Maybe it's too unPC.

Sometimes people's opinion's and beliefs change because of things that happen during their lives. JFK's father has historically been know as someone who may have been a Nazi sympathizer. Maybe he heard his father express his feelings and soon those feelings became his -- I don't know.

I think the man was very troubled. He suffered from pain because of illness and injuries and existed on drugs for most of his adult life. I remember reading that he had to have an injection of strong painkillers while he was President.

At the time the press was very protective of the personal life of the President -- so we will probably never know what the guy really thought.

 

[Jack Springer]

Oh, Jack, I so despair of you.

Aren't you the one who complains when GWB is brought up as misguided?

Going back a little far aren't you? Especially when those naïve observations were never reflected in his policies.

It's history Palbert. We should know as much as we can about history. I'm not condemning the guy ... just thought this was very interesting.

 

[palbert]

It's also very old news.

Every schoolkid knows that the reason he fought in the Pacific Theater is because he refused to fight Hitler.

And the reason his brother died in the midair explosion was to keep the munitions from being used against Germany.

 

[Vitamin]

It's also very old news.

Every schoolkid knows that the reason he fought in the Pacific Theater is because he refused to fight Hitler.

And the reason his brother died in the midair explosion was to keep the munitions from being used against Germany.

That really doesn't prove he was ever a Nazi sympathizer. Every schoolkid knows it was the Japanese that attacked us, not the Germans. And I would like some proof about his brother's death.

Those diary entries are really interesting though. The ploys of fascist dictators should be required studying for everyone.

 

[palbert]

@ Vitamin:

Joseph (Joe) Patrick Kennedy, Jr. was killed during an "Aphrodite" mission:

Operation Aphrodite made use of unmanned, explosive–laden Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress and B-24 Liberator bombers, that were deliberately crashed into their targets under radio control.[3] These aircraft could not take off safely on their own, so a crew of two would take off and fly to 2,000 feet (610 m) before activating the remote control system, arming the detonators and parachuting from the aircraft. ....

Following behind them in a USAAF F-8 Mosquito to film the mission were pilot Lt. Robert A. Tunnel and combat camera man Lt. David J. McCarthy, who filmed the event from the perspex nose.[5] As planned, Kennedy and Willy remained aboard as the BQ-8 completed its first remote-controlled turn at 2,000 feet near the North Sea coast. Kennedy and Willy removed the safety pin arming the explosive package and Kennedy radioed the agreed code Spade Flush, his last words. Two minutes later (and well before the planned crew bailout, near RAF Manston), the Torpex explosive detonated prematurely and destroyed the Liberator, killing Kennedy and Willy instantly. Wreckage landed near the village of Blythburgh in Suffolk, England, causing widespread damage and small fires, but no injuries on the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy,_Jr.

(The film has never been found.)

 

[Vitamin]

@palbert

1. That's awfully convenient that the footage hasn't been found.

2. The link you provided is to a Wikipedia page that does not exist, making me wonder where you got your information in the first place.

 

[opinterph]

@palbert

2. The link you provided is to a Wikipedia page that does not exist, making me wonder where you got your information in the first place.

The URL should include the period at the end:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy,_Jr.

→ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy,_Jr.​

 

[T-Rexx]

Those diary entries are really interesting though. The ploys of fascist dictators should be required studying for everyone.

I agree.

The fascist movement in Europe is fascinating.

There was a common (possibly prevailing) attitude in Europe in the early 20th century that fascism was probably the future of governance. It provided for the common good with socialist ideals while it supported capitalism and the accumulation of wealth. It was a particularly efficient form of government and accomplished for Spain, Italy, and Germany many reforms that had eluded those countries under democracy (and yes, I am aware that, technically, Italy never ceased to be a democracy - even up to the impeachment of Mussolini in 1943). In the case of Italy, fascism co-existed with democracy and monarchy, suggesting that those systems are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Many, many prominent Americans (including Charles Lindberg and Henry Ford) praised the virtues of fascism (but only as it was practiced by Hitler, since those worthless southerners are an incompetent breed). Were it not for the reforms instituted by FDR, there is a fair chance that the USA would have gone the fascist route as well. It is well to study the writings of these men to understand the forces that drive nations in the direction they go.

I believe that the GWB administration came interestingly close to fascism, with its theocratic and autocratic thinking. It also resembled fascism in its lack of respect for human rights, its inclination not to obey the laws or the Constitution, its militarism, its inclination to subvert the mechanisms of democracy through obstructionism and voter suppression, its coddling of the very wealthy class, and its scapegoating of minorities.

There is much to learn from the writings of Kennedy and others on this subject. It is not ancient history. It's about our lives today. But I don't think very many people are listening.

 

[bankside]

Hindsight is definitely 20/20.

Few things to remember when pointing fingers:

As misguided as it now seems, many people really DID see fascism as the only counter to the encroachment of Communism in Europe and they were more afraid of IT (they had SEEN its dangers already) than they were of fascism.

Important British and American visitors were given rather propagandist tours of the Rhineland to convince them of just this.

This was a full year before Kristallnacht.

JFK was BARELY 20 years old when he wrote this.

Jack, do you think this is proof that JFK was a closet Nazi sympathizer his entire life?

I don't know about nazi sympathiser. But it certainly raises questions as to whether JFK was even born in the US.

 

[palbert]

I don't know about nazi sympathiser. But it certainly raises questions as to whether JFK was even born in the US.

JFK did proudly declare "Ich bin ein Berliner."

 

[Jack Springer]

Hindsight is definitely 20/20.

Few things to remember when pointing fingers:

As misguided as it now seems, many people really DID see fascism as the only counter to the encroachment of Communism in Europe and they were more afraid of IT (they had SEEN its dangers already) than they were of fascism.

Important British and American visitors were given rather propagandist tours of the Rhineland to convince them of just this.

This was a full year before Kristallnacht.

JFK was BARELY 20 years old when he wrote this.

Jack, do you think this is proof that JFK was a closet Nazi sympathizer his entire life?

No, but I think it's interesting to see how people do change their minds. At 20 yo he probably had led too good a life to really see what was going on.

 

[chrisrobin]

.
What is stated on this thread is the evidence that JFK was the consummate politician - even better than "wheeler-dealer" LBJ. Forget brother Joe, JFK had his eyes on the White House from the get-go. There was a slight problem... Papa Joe was the U.S. ambassador to the UK. Great Britain had this thing about Germany.

Now here comes the good part: If JFK was going to become president, he would need the support of Joseph P. What you see on this thread was "brown nosing" par excellence. I seriously doubt that JFK was a Nazi sympathizer. He was willing to tow the line for 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue by keeping in his father's good graces.

Was LBJ a racist? You decide. When the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was up for debate, LBJ was said to have proclaimed: "If this thing goes through, we're going have the Nigger vote for the next hundred years!" However, The Act was the furthest thing from racism, IMHO.

 

[chrisrobin]

I don't know about nazi sympathiser. But it certainly raises questions as to whether JFK was even born in the US.

Did anyone ask to see his birth certificate?

 

[JayHawk]

.
What is stated on this thread is the evidence that JFK was the consummate politician - even better than "wheeler-dealer" LBJ. Forget brother Joe, JFK had his eyes on the White House from the get-go. There was a slight problem... Papa Joe was the U.S. ambassador to the UK. Great Britain had this thing about Germany.

Now here comes the good part: If JFK was going to become president, he would need the support of Joseph P. What you see on this thread was "brown nosing" par excellence. I seriously doubt that JFK was a Nazi sympathizer. He was willing to tow the line for 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue by keeping in his father's good graces.

Was LBJ a racist? You decide. When the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was up for debate, LBJ was said to have proclaimed: "If this thing goes through, we're going have the Nigger vote for the next hundred years!" However, The Act was the furthest thing from racism, IMHO.

There is one small problem with your assumption. When JFK was "brown nosing" his brother JOE was still alive and was the Kennedy who was groomed to be President NOT John. John got the nod when Joe was killed in the war to end all wars (two). No if poppa Kennedy had it his way then the sickly child he raised would not be the face of the family. But he was the war hero and he got the nod. The Berlin days had zero to do with it.