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Juan Williams Fired from NPR - Political Correctness or Good Reason?

You're ignoring the facts: they said they terminated him for what are hypocritical reasons which boil down to them saying that although he has the right to free speech, so long as he works for them he isn't allowed to exercise it. They didn't violate his right to free speech by firing him, they violated it by the terms of the contract -- which means the contract and those writing and those enforcing it were immoral (the question whether he was immoral in accepting it is interesting).

Again, his right to free speech was never in jeopardy. He could say whatever he wanted to say. They maintained the right to stop paying him their money.

The problem is not with their right to terminate the contract, it;s that they linked the issues. Your assertion here that "he has the right to say what he wants" is exactly like the Mormon assertion that gays can get married, they just have to find women. And your assertion that they didn't control his private life is laughable; that was plainly part of the contract: you want to get paid, then we control your private life. Such a contract is disgustingly immoral.

They can't control his private life. They can only control whether they want to pay him their money or not.

He's not entitled to a job with NPR or to their money.
 
Again, his right to free speech was never in jeopardy. He could say whatever he wanted to say. They maintained the right to stop paying him their money.



They can't control his private life. They can only control whether they want to pay him their money or not.

He's not entitled to a job with NPR or to their money.

You are definitely a corporate zombie. Your argument is based on a company being able to own someone's private life. No such contract is valid, and firing someone for engaging in free speech is immoral.

You should be working for the Koch brothers.

That's right, Croistoir.

The idea is so simple to understand, that the outrage over his firing bewilders me.

Folks: Freedom of Speech does not apply to private enterprise!

This is not rocket science, guys.

No, it isn't rocket science -- see above.

^The righties on this board are too blinded by political zeal to see this simple truth, Unclean.

You're supporting the "righties"!

Williams acted like a free American. NPR acted like the Koch brothers. You're saying that the Koch approach, believing you own your workers, is right. I'm arguing the liberal position, that rights cannot be signed away, and to fire someone for exercising those rights is immoral.

They didn't buy him, they hired him. You're defending them for acting like they bought him -- and that's very right-wing.
 
You are definitely a corporate zombie. Your argument is based on a company being able to own someone's private life. No such contract is valid, and firing someone for engaging in free speech is immoral.

Again, nonsense. The employee's private life is not owned, but if the employee is no longer able to do his or her job effectively the employer has a right to terminate employment or the contract.

No one is entitled to be paid for work that they can't effectively do.
 
Again, nonsense. The employee's private life is not owned, but if the employee is no longer able to do his or her job effectively the employer has a right to terminate employment or the contract.

No one is entitled to be paid for work that they can't effectively do.

But you're defending an action that con only be defended if the contract said they owned his private life -- there's no way around that, because they fired him for something in his private life, and moreover for something that actually showed he could be objective.

In other words, he demonstrated that they could do his job effectively, and they fired him for it. He demonstrated that he knows what objectivity is, and all they wanted was a party line.

If his contract said he was supposed to function in an objective manner, he should sue, because they not only violated that, they did so publicly and flagrantly.
 
Kulindahr, you seem to have lost your common-sense barometer.

At my workplace, there's a code of commitment. One of the rules is "if you engage in behavior while off duty that reflects poorly on the company, you're subject to separation from the company."

These kind of restrictions are commonplace, Kulindahr. You can, indeed, be fired for what you do when you're off duty, including anything involving "freedom of speech", which was never intended to apply to business anyway.

Hey, I took a course in basic constitutional law, and one thing that has been said over and over by the courts is that no contract requiring you to give up your rights is valid. So what you're telling me is that invalid contracts flourish! No wonder business is so corrupt.

Of course free speech doesn't apply to business -- but when it's your private life, it isn't business, and what you do in your private life is none of their business. The only way they can tell you not to exercise your right to freedom of speech is to claim to own you, to say that you are not an individual, that you don't have a life of your own, that you totally belong to them. That's so right-wing it's incredible -- and you guys are defending it!

Beyond that, "if you engage in behavior while off duty that reflects poorly on the company, you're subject to separation from the company" is a statement with no meaning -- or a very negative one. What it really says is "we're such fucking cowards about what people might think that we aren't going to allow you to act like a free individual, even though that's a total betrayal of American values because it says that freedom depends on dollars".

Kulindahr, do you have an attorney friend who can explain this to you?

What's to explain? You're defending contracts that tell people they don't own their own lives, the companies do. That's Koch brothers and beyond.

Freedom of speech just simply does not apply to businesses! It never has. It was intended to limit the powers of the government.

It applies to government because it first of all applies to people. NPR said in essence that Williams doesn't qualify as "people", he's nothing but an extension of their corporate structure. That's exactly what all the mega-corporations would love for us to believe, that we are their serfs, that free speech and freedom of expression and all only exist when they say so.

The fact is that free speech and such exist, and both business and government are irrelevant to them. And when either one requires that in my time off I have to act as though I don't have those rights, it's immoral.

Free speech was never "intended to limit the powers of the government"; the government powers had to be limited because free speech is an inherent right of sentient beings. It's in the First Amendment because government has traditionally not cared one whit for people's rights, and was never expected to do so -- that's why the prohibition had to be stated.

Free speech is real -- and anyone who wants to limit your is immoral and tyrannical, regardless of who it is.

Why don't you ask the moderators? They can ban you for what you say on this board, freedom of speech or not.

Precisely -- and that's my point. JUB won't ban me for anything I say on a Yahoo! forum, or in an interview with my local newspaper. What you're defending is if JUB watched everything I say and do everywhere, and banned me for something they didn't like -- not for offensive behavior, but for something they didn't like!

Williams didn't engage in offensive behavior, he performed in perfect accordance with objectivity -- so in reality NPR fired him because he strayed from their PC beliefs, and nothing else. He didn't conform to their expectations that he was their serf, so he got canned.

And if they didn't serve a number of useful functions, I wouldn't be conceding that 1% be cut from what the government gives them, I'd be calling for them to be shut down -- because since they get government funding, they have to be held to a level of responsibility commensurate with that, which means they have to, in all their dealings with their employees, demonstrate what liberty and justice really are. If Williams had gone nude skydiving to land in a Playboy Club to participate in a New Moon festival or something, they should have applauded him as showing what free men do: choose for themselves. But what they did was far, far worse than firing him for that -- they fired him for being honest and objective about his own feelings.

They showed they don't believe in freedom, but corporate serfdom, and don't believe in objectivity, just their party line. That's abominable.
 
But you're defending an action that con only be defended if the contract said they owned his private life -- there's no way around that, because they fired him for something in his private life, and moreover for something that actually showed he could be objective.

We fundamentally disagree.

In other words, he demonstrated that they could do his job effectively, and they fired him for it. He demonstrated that he knows what objectivity is, and all they wanted was a party line.

His effectiveness in his job is determined by his employers, not you or me. If they feel making publicly a bigoted statement makes him ineffective in the role they pay him for, that's their call.

If his contract said he was supposed to function in an objective manner, he should sue, because they not only violated that, they did so publicly and flagrantly.

I doubt that's what his contract says, quite seriously.
 
^ Kulindahr, on one issue, you're just flat-out wrong.

Our private lives can sometimes have a direct bearing on the reputation of the company.

Yes, and cops can arrest you for laws that don't exist. So? Is the argument now that what is, is moral?

That rule I told you about?

It's been used at least twice, that I know of.

In one case, a worker was arrested for soliciting prostitution. In those days, "johns'" pictures were televised. So they fired him.

Are you hinting that appearing on FOX is criminal in nature? :badgrin:


The other case involved an incident that reached national attention.

So what you do—or say–on in your private life CAN get you fired, and in that respect, they DO own us.

And the government, thanks to Obama, can detain or even shoot citizens without trial or even warrant. Are you defending that, too?

As for your other arguments? Man, oh, man alive! You're spinning in a maelstrom of idealism. <whistles> Kulindahr, how long has it been since you've worked for a corporation?

I've never worked for a corporation that cared at all what we did off the job. Doing so would be no different than welcoming the "USA PATRIOT" Act as a bastion of liberty.

(Johann Bessler is going to have to let this one go. Poor Kulindahr is past reaching.)

Love you anyway, man.

If by "reaching" you mean persuaded to abandon what is right for what is expedient, yes.
 
His effectiveness in his job is determined by his employers, not you or me. If they feel making publicly a bigoted statement makes him ineffective in the role they pay him for, that's their call.

He didn't make a bigoted statement.

And if that's what they thought, then they should be defunded. Honest reporting of an emotional reaction is not bigotry.

I think I'm going to compose a letter urging my congresscritters to cut off all NPR funding, permanently.
 
Here's an interesting segment from NPR's On The Media. It doesn't seem to agree with NPR's take on the matter, though it quotes their spokeman; in fact it gives the last word to someone who thinks they chose the wrong Juan Williams behavior to make a point about him, and the wrong person to make that point about.

It did modify my thinking somewhat. It points out both that a) this isn't the first problem they've had with Williams, and b) he was taken grossly out of context, making this look more like a Shirley Sharrod kind of case.

Note, this is one of NPR's own programs being sharply critical of NPR's behavior. They give their people tremendous freedom, in general.

OTM segment on the firing of Juan Williams
 
Thanks, Crio. It puts things in perspective, but reinforces my point that he was fired for having a personal opinion, and contrary to any desire for objective journalism -- he was in fact doing an excellent job on that point.

The one guy being interviewed there was right: they could have just said they'd decided there had been too many issues with him and that was that.
 
Thanks, Crio. It puts things in perspective, but reinforces my point that he was fired for having a personal opinion, and contrary to any desire for objective journalism -- he was in fact doing an excellent job on that point.

The one guy being interviewed there was right: they could have just said they'd decided there had been too many issues with him and that was that.

Would have been smarter for them, too.
 
My gut is that Juan Williams appearing on Fox News somewhat regularly ............ made him not so popular at NPR

And that where he made his statement or "feeling" about Muslims and flying public rather than the statements themselves is the real problem for NPR management or Ms. Schiller

What I find particularly appalling is that they held Williams to different standards than other NPR representatives - one Nina Totenberg once remarked that Jesse Helms getting AIDS would be a good thing (paraphrasing)

so the basis for firing Williams was not truthful
 
I don't think Congress needs to be in the business of micromanaging every grantee's personnel issues.

Micromanaging?

Idiocy like seeing bigotry where there isn't a trace of it indicates a systemic problem. And NPR isn't just any grantee, it's something that stands out in the public in a way that part of its job is to model the American virtues.

They should have been complimenting Williams on his honesty and ability to turn it into a lesson for all of us. Instead they stomped on him. That's a lesson that says keep your head down, don't make waves, conform -- a very un-American lesson.
 
Williams was fired because he appeared on FOX News and that offended the elitists at NPR. Why is that so difficult to accept? The leadership at NPR not only fucked up by firing him as they did, the comments by the bitch in charge questioning his mental stability were way out of line. If the Corporation for Public Broadcasting loses it taxpayer subsidy I won't shed any tears. It has always been a left wing front group anyhow, let them survive on their listeners contributions, like Air America it will wither and die.
 
He wasn't fired for this one incident. He was fired for repeated and flagrant violations of NPR's ethics code. He was spoken to about it each and every time, and continued to commit further violations.

He has a right to say whatever he wants. He does not have a right to appear on NPR. Period. This is not a free-speech issue.
 
Williams was fired because he appeared on FOX News and that offended the elitists at NPR. Why is that so difficult to accept? The leadership at NPR not only fucked up by firing him as they did, the comments by the bitch in charge questioning his mental stability were way out of line. If the Corporation for Public Broadcasting loses it taxpayer subsidy I won't shed any tears. It has always been a left wing front group anyhow, let them survive on their listeners contributions, like Air America it will wither and die.

CPB funds a lot more than just NPR.

NPR gets 2% of its funding from government sources. They rely most heavily on member station contributions, who in turn rely most heavily on listener contributions (like the one I make, with pride, to WNYC every year).

NPR isn't going to wither and die anytime soon.
 
CPB funds a lot more than just NPR.

NPR gets 2% of its funding from government sources. They rely most heavily on member station contributions, who in turn rely most heavily on listener contributions (like the one I make, with pride, to WNYC every year).

NPR isn't going to wither and die anytime soon.

Apparently the episode has affected donations enough that the network's CEO has been forced to apologize for how the whole thing was handled.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/TV/10/25/ent.npr.analyst/

They didn't apologize for the firing, but did apologize that they didn't do it the right way, and prepared for the fallout. So no, NPR may not escape this unscathed.
 
Micromanaging?

Yes. Any grantor should ensure that a non profit it funds has appropriate governance, deliverables, and financial stability.

It has no business getting into individual personnel issues for many reasons - not least of which is that the personnel record is not known to them.
 
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