Judy, Bette, et al.

[AaronG]

Dumb question:
Why the obsession with Judy Garland, Bette Midler, and all the other women stereotypically worshiped by gays everywhere? I don't get it. Is there something I don't know, or is it just not my style? Or is it all just a popular cliche about gays, and nobody really cares that much about them?

 

[hermanding]

i would doubt judy has any bearing on gay experience today. she died in 1969. i think gays were attracted to her because of the constant battles for survival in her life - bad relationships, likor, drogas - and just unbelievably talented.
bette courted a gay audience in the beginning singing at a baths in new york, so that is the beginning of her fame. she probably is a much stronger personality than judy.
cliche is a possible word for their effect on gays of today. not a generación or more in the past though - certainly with judy
ding

 

[perkifactor]

hm...talent. I think gays are better judges of talent and beauty (esp. in women, because we're objective) just because we're better people but seriously, I think that if there is a gay following for any person, they automatically become "gay icons." Judy was amazingly talented, and lived a damaged life, which I think affects many gays, while Bette's basically (using Tyra Bank's self-description) a drag queen in a woman's body. I think Cher's the same way. But I don't think I'd like them any differently if I were straight, nor does my sexuality determine whom I should listen to.

 

[NickCole]

The Judy, Barbra, Bette thing is about survival and success in the face of adversity.

Judy, Barbra, Bette were not pretty, not conventional, and had to fight hard to survive harsh adversity -- but they did more than survive, they were successes. Gay men related to that and aspired to it.

Judy, Barbra and Bette were not the same generation, they were three different periods. After Bette came Madonna.

 

[guajero]

i think that is a cliche that died a long time ago.

 

[hermanding]

it certainly will be dead when none of us are around that related to it
ding

 

[skibby]

I don't think the cliche is necessarily dead. Today you can substitute other names like Madonna, Kylie, Christina, and Pink. Lots of gay men like strong, tough women who push a few boundaries and kick a little ass.

 

[ladygrey]

Hey!

I love divas in all their many forms, male or female.

And yah, part of the draw is because they are such strong, unique, and powerful people who aspire to no ones standards but their own.

But also, I love the drama. I love the glitter and the sparkles. The big voices and the equally big egos are great as well.

It just........resonates with me.

And I doubt that has anything to do with me being gay, other than I also love to push boundaries and am a rather strong person as well.

But honestly, live and let live.

Get over it. Who cares if it's a cliche? Who gives flying f*ck? Like what you like, do what you do, and let the rest of us celebrate our lives the way we want to free of judgement.

I've had enough shame from hetro society, I don't need it from gay culture.

 

[okstatecowboy]

I don't think the cliche is necessarily dead. Today you can substitute other names like Madonna, Kylie, Christina, and Pink. Lots of gay men like strong, tough women who push a few boundaries and kick a little ass.

Taking this a little farther. Having been born in 1970, I grew up admiring such women that stood up for themselves and didn't take crap from anyone. When MTV first appeared and they found an icon in the making (Madonna), I remember her using video and other forms of media to her advantage to form our impressions of her and what she stood for (and still does so). She used her celebrity to endorse her points of views and to encourage others to take a stand for such things as gay rights, AIDS education, among other things. I never wanted to be Madonna, but rather I wanted to be someone like her... someone that stood for something and pushed the buttons.

mikey

 

[Singularity]

I hate Judy Garland and I'm sick of Madonna - retire already!

 

[Singularity]

Blasphemy!!!

Well, I'm not the standard-gay. I also get sick of girly queers and I am for banning gay pride parades.

I'm in an iffy mood as you can read.

 

[Singularity]

Oh fuck off!

j/k
lol

One more witty remark and I'll cut off your supply of showtunes.

 

[Singularity]

Is this an offer? :-/

 

[AaronG]

Sorry to bust in on your quality time, but I think I get the picture. I'm not into sequins either, but I definitely have an appreciation for tough broads. They are some of my best friends, as well as people I look up to. I hadn't seen that common thread in the famous gals, but it makes sense.

 

[spreadeagle]

To add a little to the Judy Garland effect:

Her development from vaudeville performer, to child star, to radio peformer and star of MGM musicals in the days when radio and cinema were major entertainment forms meant that millions felt they knew her intimately. Later on the tremendous success of her Carnegie Hall and Palace Theatre performances contributed to the legend. She performed literally thousands of live shows and her Saturday night TV show brought her into every home.

If you get the opportunity, watch the footage of her performing 'The Battle Hymn of the Republic' on the Saturday following Kennedy's assasination; or singing 'Old Man River'. These are transformative experiences - she transforms herself and mesmerises the audience. A true artist - and they are few and far between.

On the gay theme - her father was gay and she married gay men. Some commenattors attribute the focused energy at Stonewall on that night in '69 to the fact that there were so many queens on the street because the news had just broken of Garland's death.

Incidentally - many of the great popular female singers are below average height - Garland, Piaf, Streisand, Elaine Paige, Bette Midler. Watch out for the new French biopic on Piaf - I think it's to be called 'La Vie En Rose' in the States. Piaf was 4'8''.

 

[cocktales]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_FW86_jO7k_A/Ra-GRbsVPOI/AAAAAAAABmE/FKqhJPBnSvM/s320/732261_356x237.jpg
She's certainly something to behold and even admire on some strange level. Bottom line though, she was a walking disaster almost her entire life and while her legion of biographers have more than made the point that most of that wasn't her fault, "talented victim" is just not something we respond to when it comes to our icons.

We're the Madonna generation. Sure, she can't hold a candle to Miss Garland in the talent sweepstakes, but she was always in control of herself and her career. Or at least, she did a damn good job of promoting that image. Why do certain women magically and effortlessly ascend Mt. Gay to a position of prominence? (There's a reason Paris Hilton and Tori Spelling aren't gay icons).

Judy is a classic pre-feminism female figure and Madonna is a classic post-feminism figure. Since the rise of feminism was of a piece with the rise of gay rights, it would seem to make sense that gay men who grew up post-feminism (like us) would discard earlier victimized female gay icons for more empowered, less tragic ones. Or maybe we're talking out our asses. Certainly, we've fallen into the trap that imposes more relevance and meaning on to poor Judy's life than she ever probably wanted.

Divas, while not sexually attractive to most gay men, are heroes to us because they prove to the world that you don't need to be "butch" in order to be strong. Cher, Madonna, Christina, Bette Davis, Joan Crawford -- they all sort of fit this category. Judy is something else altogether; a little more fragile on the outside, but must have had an enormous reservoir of inner strength in order to keep on coming back every time life seemed to knock her down. And according to Liza, really funny -- always, even when life was cruel.

I still almost cry every time I hear her sing Somewhere Over the Rainbow during her Live at Carnegie Hall Concert. In that single voice crack, I can hear years of pleading for love. (Perhaps it is my own vulnerability speaking here and I just hear what it is I want) Perhaps there are many that adore her because there are many people out there (espcially gay men)who understand what it feels like to constantly search for love and acceptance. Sorry, that may have gotten a bit deep.

.......But until gay schoolkids stop getting tormented and beaten up - until gay kids grow up without shame and abuse and pain and secrets - I don't think you will find Ms. Garland's charms to be wilted or forgotten.

 

[starlight70]

Why a gay guy like me chooses Madonna as a gay icon? Well, maybe it is because she had shown that in this world, one does not have to succumb to an image as expected. Just because she is a woman, she has to what is expected of a woman. Just like me - just because I am a guy, I have to be what the society expects of a guy.

The fact that she tries to step up and eventually able to break the stereotyping expected of a 'her', she becomes like what was shared in the postings above - an image of survival. And I believe I survived too, in my own way.

Maybe that's why I like her, and many more like her.

 

[Swellegant]

I think the draw of Judy Garland and Barbra Streisand, not to mention Billie Holliday and Edith Piaf, is the raw emotion of their voices. It's pure feeling shooting out of a powerful instrument, and I think that appeals to us because we tend to spend a lot of our time bottling up our feelings and hiding ourselves from the rest of the world. It's a primal scream wrung painfully out of a fragile body, done in perfect harmony and with lyrics you can sing along to.

Bette Midler, on the other hand, in league with Maria Callas and Marlene Dietrich in the past and Kylie Minogue and P!nk in the present (and yes, that ghastly 'ho Madonna, whom I loathe), represent a tough, funny kind of power that we can aspire to, icons whose feelings can't be hurt... and yet who can and frequently do sing with real and powerful emotion. They are so very much themselves, so very open and honest yet unassailable.

You seldom see soft, controlled, lovely but unemotional singers in gay men's collections... no Dinah Shore, no Doris Day; and certainly no men, who almost always sing in a controlled and often rather overbearing manner.

 

[josher]

And it doesn't hurt that they sings songs about loving (and all too often) losing men.