On-Topic Justice and (our) humanity

[Kulindahr]

I've always known that our justice system in the U.S. isn't perfect. For almost that long I've recognized that it is more on the imperfect side than the prefect. Since then I've seen it functioning much more close up, and decided that when they call it the "criminal justice system", the word "criminal" is telling us the nature of the justice dispensed, not to whom it is dispensed.

But the depth of the reality of the situation, which makes us very vulnerable to becoming a full-fledged police state, was still alien to me. But here's a talk that opened my eyes even wider -- hopefully it will make everyone ask some deep questions:

[video]http://www.ted.com/talks/bryan_stevenson_we_need_to_talk_about_an_injustice .html[/video]

 

[frankfrank]

Kuli, you sent me this wonderful piece via email, and you're sharing it here as well. Good call! That guy IS definitely telling us the truth. Perhaps decreasing the priority of the War On Drugs, which Obama seems to have at least some willingness to do, will help to correct this incredible tendency of injustice and kangaroo courts.

Few people ever mention, though, that U. S. prisons are the best crime schools that have ever existed in, perhaps, the history of the planet. People who get out of prison (having served for having a little bit too much pot on them - or perhaps unjustly got caught up in a fake "He said, she said" sexcrime scenario that didn't happen but didn't get saved by the horrible state-appointed attorney, etc.), they get out and know everything about how to commit crimes and probably get away with it.

Yeah, I know the above sentence is grammatically incorrect, but I think actually clearer than being correct unless I were to rewrite it, and of course writing this disclaimer took every bit as much effort as it would have taken to rewrite the above sentence and make it grammatically correct...D'oh!!

Thanks for posting this, it should be required watching.

 

[Kulindahr]

Kuli, you sent me this wonderful piece via email, and you're sharing it here as well. Good call! That guy IS definitely telling us the truth. Perhaps decreasing the priority of the War On Drugs, which Obama seems to have at least some willingness to do, will help to correct this incredible tendency of injustice and kangaroo courts.

Few people ever mention, though, that U. S. prisons are the best crime schools that have ever existed in, perhaps, the history of the planet. People who get out of prison (having served for having a little bit too much pot on them - or perhaps unjustly got caught up in a fake "He said, she said" sexcrime scenario that didn't happen but didn't get saved by the horrible state-appointed attorney, etc.), they get out and know everything about how to commit crimes and probably get away with it.

Yeah, I know the above sentence is grammatically incorrect, but I think actually clearer than being correct unless I were to rewrite it, and of course writing this disclaimer took every bit as much effort as it would have taken to rewrite the above sentence and make it grammatically correct...D'oh!!

Thanks for posting this, it should be required watching.

I'm surprised, actually, that there haven't been more comments. This is really more troubling than the mass shootings in one important way, namely that it keeps happening, over and over, constantly.

I keep thinking, if we get one in ten wrong on death row, where great pains are taken to get it right, how are we doing down below -- one in five? one in four?

 

[palbert]

[Quoted Post: Removed by Moderator]

I am a liberal but to a large part I must agree.

I live in the country's most socialist state where marriage is an impediment to family income.

To that mix add guns.

 

[Kulindahr]

Benvolio, please make the case -- with cites and reason -- that the rate of unjust incarceration and uneven justice between rich and poor, black and white, has any connection at all to immigration. Otherwise, you are totally off-topic and also in violation of an admonition to you from the mods, namely to follow the rules about dragging the same topic into all threads.

After all, this is on-topic.

 

[Benvolio]

Bryan blames crime upon poverty and the lack of opportunity, both of which are in large part a result of immigration. You invited us to think about and discuss Bryan's speech, which would appear to be the topic.

 

[palbert]

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thr...ur)-humanity?p=8582899&viewfull=1#post8582899

Removed? W T F? Reason s'il vous plait.

 

[opinterph]

Off-Topic

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/thr...ur)-humanity?p=8582899&viewfull=1#post8582899

Removed? W T F? Reason s'il vous plait.

The deleted post introduces apparently unrelated concepts and fails to establish/explain the possible connection of such remarks to the thread topic. The deleted post appears to include one or more remarks that may reasonably constitute racial or ethnic baiting, particularly when taken in the context of the OP’s previously documented pattern of posting activity and associated advisories from one or more forum moderators.

The OP remains welcome to answer the challenge posted by the thread’s creator and thereby reintroduce certain aspects of the deleted post; however, diligence and caution are advised.

 

[palbert]

Thank you. All I wanted from Delphi was the reason.

 

[JayHawk]

Kulindhar I recognize the war on drugs as a contributor to 20% of our current prison population however it is exacerbated by mandatory sentences and the incarceration of non violent criminals. I will have to look for the 20% cite that i read in another article. This all started in the eighties where Reagan and the new wave of conservatives decided that if you screw up you should be incarcerated. That will teach them. The tough on crime lobby led to a lot of this problem.

People are easy to convince of these policies as well. The consideration playing on two levels. One if you are a law abiding citizen then you wont get into trouble and two if a crime has occurred to you or even in your neighborhood then it is easy to feel victimized.

The problem as has already been mentioned is these non-violent offenders become indoctrinated into a life of crime, they have so many opportunities removed from them educational aid, voting and other such things that acts in concert to keep the person 'down' as it were. Even if that person desired to correct themselves it is prohibitive. So then you have an entire family that is affected and that creates even more a propensity for criminal activity. So it then becomes this never ending cycle of failure and incarceration.

Still I maintain hope when a state like Texas realizes they cannot afford to house so many felons and so then begins rehab programs that are proven effective. The one in Texas uses a Judge instead of a parole officer... or rather in concert with a parole officer. SO weekly these folks who have violated the law have to meet with the judge and he gives each individual goals. Such as begin drug rehab or get a job, check into a halfway house and meet their requirements for demonstrating appropriate behavior of a citizen. The benefit of using a judge to do this is the immediate consequence. If the parole fails they are jailed for a few days to give immediate reaction to immediate failure. Then they are given another chance with the same goals. it works to eventually teach proper behavior.

the problem with a parole system is the parole officers can arrest folks and then they sit and the only recourse a judge has it to have them serve their original sentence and then await a parole process again... too much long term and not enough NOW.

In any event, i see this program design becoming mainstream. Especially with the success the Texas program is experiencing.

Finally here is a nugget of thought that will punch a hole in your theory of criminal activity on the part of the courts. At least it will punch a hole in peoples perceptions. ALL crime is down and declining and has been since 1980. How can you argue there isn't a cause and effect?

 

[swerve]

I'm REALLY glad to see this topic broached here...

I had considered writing something similar about a week ago, because I read an article that BLATANTLY shows this IN REAL LIFE..

It demonstrates one of the Justice Departments MAJOR flaws -- PERFECTLY...

The first is the story of Stephanie George -- she dated a guy who dealt drugs on the side -- her boyfriend chose her attic as his hiding place for the stash...

She was sentenced to a Mandatory Minimum of LIFE w/o parole -- AGAINST the Florida Judges own judgment...

AND THEN...

Just a WEEK ago -- HSBC was fined $1.9 Billion for its role in laundering at least $8 Billion of Mexico's drug money...

Part of the plea deal was that there would be "NO CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS"...

Here is the link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/12/hsbc-prosecution-fine-money-laundering

And a link to the NYT story about Stephanie George: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/12/s...n-sentences-face-growing-skepticism.html?_r=0

It is both HIDEOUS and NAUSEATING that we have allowed our country to get to this VISIBLE level of injustice based on economic disparity...

I know that I personally get vocal against the police and justice system on a regular basis around here -- and THIS is why -- it is NOT because I personally am a law-breaker...

We just have TOO MANY of our fellow citizens behind bars for LITTLE reasons -- and those who BLATANTLY break the law BIG, and have ENOUGH clout -- walk away...

There is also the issue where accidents have become criminalized -- but that is another topic...

GREAT THREAD Kuli!!!

 

[Kulindahr]

Bryan blames crime upon poverty and the lack of opportunity, both of which are in large part a result of immigration. You invited us to think about and discuss Bryan's speech, which would appear to be the topic.

Got any figures on how much crime is committed by poor immigrants? That would be valuable input.

 

[Rolyo85]

Yeah, the inequality is sadly unavoidable, though justices could be more impartial for sure.

However, outside of profiling (which, sadly, is sometimes justified), I wouldn't blame the police for doing their job. I mean, I wouldn't lump them together with the justice system.

 

[Kulindahr]

Racial justice in Alabama? You will have an easier time counting all the grains of sand at Praia do Cassino.

You will also never have class equality in a courtroom unless you bar private attorneys. It's part of the capitalist identity, but then, what are the alternatives?

I'm not sure you have to go that far. I've seen some pretty darned good justice when there's a public defender's office guaranteed by law to be funded at 2/3 the rate of the prosecutor's office. People with lots of money can still get a fancy lawyer, but people who can'y can get one who is well-paid and has just as much time and resources as the DA to devote to your case.

 

[Benvolio]

Are you sure you want another thread about immigration? My only point was that by taking jobs, immigrants reduce opportunities for blacks and compete for social and educational resources, contributing to black poverty. Of course,many immigrants commit crimes and are a major part of the drug importation problem.

 

[Kulindahr]

Are you sure you want another thread about immigration? My only point was that by taking jobs, immigrants reduce opportunities for blacks and compete for social and educational resources, contributing to black poverty. Of course,many immigrants commit crimes and are a major part of the drug importation problem.

I asked for figures, with citations. If you have none, remain silent about that aspect.

 

[Benvolio]

Of course there is a great deal of research on immigrant crime.http://cis.org/ImmigrantCrime 20 percent of incarcerated criminals are foreign born.

 

[opinterph]

… 20 percent of incarcerated criminals are foreign born.

That is garbage.

From your link:

Problems with Data from the 287(g) Program.

The first and most important problem with trying to analyze 287(g) data is that we have complete information for only 10 counties, out of more 3,100 counties and hundreds of cities that also run jails.

The Center For Immigration Studies Is Part Of John Tanton's Anti-Immigrant Network.

Anti-Immigrant Group Circulates Blog From White Supremacist In Weekly Email

Among men ages 18 to 40, the group most likely to commit crimes, native-born Americans were 10 times more likely than immigrants to be incarcerated for crimes in California prisons and jails.

Crime, Corrections, and California: What Does Immigration Have to Do with It?

 

[Kulindahr]

Of course there is a great deal of research on immigrant crime.http://cis.org/ImmigrantCrime 20 percent of incarcerated criminals are foreign born.

That's not what it says.

But if it did, are you maintaining that immigrants are unfairly targeted, which is the thrust of the thread?

Come back with actual figures and tell us what they actually say, and show that immigrants are unfairly targeted, or this issue is no longer relevant to this thread.

 

[rareboy]

Oh Benvolio....

You know what you get for Christmas when you lie all year long??????