Justice At Last, Bill Cosby Found Guilty.

[KaraBulut]

[Quoted Post: Removed]

Well, for the audience, I will add some interesting details about what this sidebar is about.

Thomas Jefferson was married once. He married his wife (who was a distant cousin of Jefferson) when she was 18 years old. As part of her marriage dowry, his wife Martha, inherited slaves from her wealthy father. Included in those slaves was a woman Betty Hemmings who had several children. The children were fathered by Martha's father. This means that Betty's children were Martha's half-siblings. Oh... Betty Hemmings was mulatto- at least half-white, which means that Betty Hemmings' children were 3/4 white or "quadroons" in the terminology of the time.

So, Martha Jefferson owned her father's mulatto mistress and she owned her own half-brothers and half-sisters.

This is where modern understanding of these complexities doesn't work. It was very common for both black and white free people to own enslaved relatives. For example, a free black man who married an enslaved black woman might "buy" his wife from her owner. Mixed race children were at the mercy of the laws of the State; in some States, an owner might free his mixed-race children in their will but in other States where manumission was not legal, the children were passed to other relatives who became their owner.

Resuming the story... Martha had six children. She died in childbirth at age 33. Only two of her children lived to adulthood. She had exacted a promise from Thomas Jefferson that he should never remarry. Thomas Jefferson never remarried.

Thomas, at some point, undertook a relationship of some sort with his wife's half-sister, Sally Hemmings. Sally was one of the quadroon children of Betty Hemmings. Sally was probably in her early teens when her half-sister (Martha Jefferson) died. Sally went to Paris with Thomas Jefferson around the time that she was 15 or 16. Because slavery was not legal in France, Sally was a paid servant. In Paris, Jefferson and Hemmings began a sexual relationship. This relationship lasted years and produced 6 children.

When Jefferson returned to the US, Sally Hemmings agreed to return to Virginia where she would again be considered "a slave". According to her descendants, part of the arrangement was that Hemmings' children would be freemen when they turned age 21.

Now... how this bizarre complicated 18th century scenario relates at all to a rich, powerful man who, in the 20th century, drugged and sexually assaulted a whole lotta women who were not his wife... well, that I cannot provide an answer to.

 

[USEDCAR]

Why was a minor at the playboy mansion?

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Why was a minor at the playboy mansion?

Same reason the courts haven't released Epstein's client list. America is a safe haven for sexual predators.

 

[KaraBulut]

Can somebody confirm?

I knew this stuff from some articles that came out when the two families - the descendants of Sally Hemmings and the descendants of Martha Jefferson - acknowledged that they were both the descendants of Thomas Jefferson. When I read the articles, I literally had to read some of the paragraphs multiple times because this is such a complicated story. Later today, I can find those articles for you if you're interested in reading them.

Why was a minor at the playboy mansion?

The question is rhetorical, right?

There are hundreds, if not thousands of people who were at parties at the Playboy Mansion. Not many of them talk on the record about what happened there. When they do, it's pretty shocking. I'm still trying to process the bisexual relationship that Hefner is supposed to have had during all of this.

 

[unloadonme]

Thomas, at some point, undertook a relationship of some sort with his wife's half-sister, Sally Hemmings. Sally was one of the quadroon children of Betty Hemmings. Sally was probably in her early teens when her half-sister (Martha Jefferson) died. Sally went to Paris with Thomas Jefferson around the time that she was 15 or 16. Because slavery was not legal in France, Sally was a paid servant. In Paris, Jefferson and Hemmings began a sexual relationship. This relationship lasted years and produced 6 children.

Can somebody confirm? Maybe I'm being hysterical. Was the rape of a minor slave by her parents' owner referred to as a "relationship?" Like she was just skipping through the cotton fields and said "Hey that grown man looks mighty handsome I think I'm gonna go fuck him!"? Is that what was said? Maybe I misinterpreted.

Sorry, but where does it say that this was rape? Are we racial stereotyping again?

 

[KaraBulut]

Sorry, but where does it say that this was rape? Are we racial stereotyping again?

He's correct to question whether the sexual relationship was consensual. The average American Black person is likely to have 25% of more European DNA. Do the backward math and that means that in 2-3 ancetral generations, there was a white or partially white ancestor. It's unlikely that all of those relationships were consensual or that there wasn't some sort of monetary transaction that took place.

The Jefferson-Hemmings relationship is not the best example but it doesn't mean that Black enslaved women weren't used by White men for sexual pleasures against their will. They were.

I think the thing that is very disturbing about the Cosby stories is that this is someone who was lecturing Black men about their treatment of women. And then we find out that he was not only cheating on his wife, he was drugging and sexually assaulting women.

 

[KaraBulut]

...she was 14 he was almost 4x her age...

Not historically accurate.

Sally's date of birth was unknown but according to Wikipedia, it's estimated to be about 1773. Harriet Hemmings, Sally's first child with Jefferson was born in October 1795 after they returned from Paris. She was not in Paris when she was 14 years old. The estimate is that she accompanied Jefferson's daughter to Paris when she was somewhere between 14-16 years old (the Wikipedia article says 15-16 years old, based upon on writings from Abigail Adams with whom she stayed in England on the way to Paris).

In 1795, Jefferson would have been 52 when Hemmings was 22.

I just skimmed the Wikipedia article just now to find the dates and most of what I wrote in my earlier post above was accurate. One thing that I got wrong was Sally's mothers name (Betty) and I corrected this in my earlier post.

 

[unloadonme]

He's correct to question whether the sexual relationship was consensual. The average American Black person is likely to have 25% of more European DNA. Do the backward math and that means that in 2-3 ancestral generations, there was a white or partially white ancestor. It's unlikely that all of those relationships were consensual or that there wasn't some sort of monetary transaction that took place.

The Jefferson-Hemmings relationship is not the best example but it doesn't mean that Black enslaved women weren't used by White men for sexual pleasures against their will. They were.

I don't doubt for one minute that that was possible. The Wikipedia page for Thomas Jefferson states that Sally Hemmings was 16 in 1787 when they went to Paris. That's above the current age of consent in France which is 15. I don't know what the legal position was in the late eighteenth century, but at 16 Sally was able to consent by modern standards at least. It could have been rape, it could have been consensual sex. We'll never know. The knee jerk assumption that it was rape is unsupported by the limited historical evidence and is, as ever, based on anti-white prejudice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

 

[KaraBulut]

I don't doubt for one minute that that was possible. The Wikipedia page for Thomas Jefferson states that Sally Hemmings was 16 in 1787 when they went to Paris. That's above the current age of consent in France which is 15. I don't know what the legal position was in the late eighteenth century, but at 16 Sally was able to consent by modern standards at least. It could have been rape, it could have been consensual sex. We'll never know. The knee jerk assumption that it was rape is unsupported by the limited historical evidence and is, as ever, based on anti-white prejudice.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

And it is a dodgy situation, because on US soil, Sally would have been the property of Jefferson and not entitled to any rights, including the right to refuse sexual advances. Since they were in Paris, Sally was a free black woman who was Jefferson's employee. She was also the half-aunt of the children for whom she was working as a "nurse" (which in this case was likely a chaperone/personal maid), although the Jefferson descendants denied this, it was known by the family and other servants at Monticello during Jefferson's lifetime. Sally may have had a legal right to refuse consent while in Paris; she had no rights upon return to the US.

I just happened upon a very good summary of the known facts on the Monticello.org website. The Thomas Jefferson Foundation denied the relationship and what amounted to a second family for Thomas Jefferson until the 1990s. In 2000, they published a paper acknowledging that "there is a high probability that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Eston Hemings" based upon both the statements made by Madison Hemings (Sally's son) and Israel Gillette, a slave from the Monticello plantatton. It's an interesting read.

If the statements from the Hemings descendants are correct, Sally made a bargain with Jefferson. Owners don't negotiate with slaves. That's what makes this story much more complicated than we can really grasp from the mores of the 21st century.

 

[unloadonme]

Extraordinarily, Cosby's team are portraying the recent decision that he must pay $500,000 damages as an "astonishing victory" because he was not also required to pay punitive damages. Despite said "victory", he plans to appeal.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainme...huth-sexual-assault-trial-astonishing-victory

 

[KaraBulut]

Extraordinarily, Cosby's team are portraying the recent decision that he must pay $500,000 damages as an "astonishing victory" because he was not also required to pay punitive damages. Despite said "victory", he plans to appeal.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainme...huth-sexual-assault-trial-astonishing-victory

It is a victory because Cosby has more money and less time less on this earth. He can drag this out with appeals and never pay her anything.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

The knee jerk assumption that it was rape is unsupported by the limited historical evidence and is, as ever, based on anti-white prejudice.

Evidence supports rape was an ordinary part of chattel slavery. No evidence supports consensual relationships between teen, or any slaves and their owners. As ever, this is an attempt to diminish the crimes sanctioned by the state and deprive descendants of the transatlantic slave trade of justice or even just an honest telling of history.

Some argue the evidence in the cosby case suggests these encounters were consensual, guess it depends on who you're asking and what their motivations are.

 

[unloadonme]

Evidence supports rape was an ordinary part of chattel slavery. No evidence supports consensual relationships between teen, or any slaves and their owners. As ever, this is an attempt to diminish the crimes sanctioned by the state and deprive descendants of the transatlantic slave trade of justice or even just an honest telling of history.

As I said in the part of my post which you chose not to quote, "It could have been rape, it could have been consensual sex. We'll never know".

Some argue the evidence in the cosby case suggests these encounters were consensual, guess it depends on who you're asking and what their motivations are.

The difference is that Cosby and his alleged victims are alive, can be questioned and can give evidence in court. A jury, having heard that evidence, decided to convict. That's good enough for me. Jefferson and Hemmings on the other hand have been dead for two hundred years. They can't speak for themselves, there's no independent evidence and, as I say, we'll never know what the particular circumstances were.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

The difference is that Cosby and his alleged victims are alive, can be questioned and can give evidence in court. A jury, having heard that evidence, decided to convict. That's good enough for me. Jefferson and Hemmings on the other hand have been dead for two hundred years. They can't speak for themselves, there's no independent evidence and, as I say, we'll never know what the particular circumstances were.

And naturally you leaned towards "white slaveowner banging his slave's teenage daughter is totally innocent and consensual?" Sexual violence against women of color began during chattel slavery but it didn't stop there, all throughout the 20th century there were, again, unprosecuted rapes and this type of violence had multiple purposes-- one just for fun but also as a form of ethnic intimidation. Any large black family today especially in the south has a color palette like mine where everybody is Lebron James' color or darker except the one, in my case an aunt, who is paler than a ghost and nobody talks about their parentage. There's a much longer history of white men raping black women (and men, and children) than there is of consensual interracial dating. The erasure of these violent crimes that were a part of ordinary everyday life for hundreds of years is just another sinister part of exonerating racist crimes and depriving black Americans of justice. Even if the age of consent now or then is 16 there's no reason to believe he didn't start grooming Ms Hemingway for the abuse much younger as is often the case with these relationships that "suddenly" spring up once the victim reaches the legal age. Or are we to believe the man who trafficked bred bought and sold human beings drew the line of decency at child abuse? It makes absolutely zero sense outside of a need to uphold the legacy of white supremacy and glorifying men who casually and enthusiastically committed crimes against humanity, all the time. It is frightening that people believe simply talking about this heritage of racist violence and sexual violence against people of color is tantamount to "anti-white racism." That's really cheap, lazy gaslighting.

 

[Alistair]

Look up Danny Masterson. Of course he’s white so…..

 

[Araucaria]

Jefferson and Hemmings on the other hand have been dead for two hundred years. They can't speak for themselves, there's no independent evidence and, as I say, we'll never know what the particular circumstances were.

The DNA evidence says otherwise:

https://www.monticello.org/thomas-j...fferson-fathered-children-with-sally-hemings/

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

The DNA evidence says otherwise:

https://www.monticello.org/thomas-j...fferson-fathered-children-with-sally-hemings/

I think the argument isn't paternity rather consent. Some people believe the most plausible explanation is a teenage slave willingly having a romantic relationship with her owner. We've seen this theme of romanticizing slave rape all throughout film and fiction, and probably soon history textbooks. It's pretty disturbing actually.

 

[unloadonme]

And naturally you leaned towards "white slaveowner banging his slave's teenage daughter is totally innocent and consensual?

How do you get from me saying "we'll never know what the particular circumstances were" to me supposedly leaning towards "innocent and consensual" sex? I could have said that Hemmings was a raving nymphomaniac who couldn't get enough BWC, but that would be completely unjustified. It's you who jumps to unfounded conclusions.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

How do you get from me saying "we'll never know what the particular circumstances were" to me supposedly leaning towards "innocent and consensual" sex? I could have said that Hemmings was a raving nymphomaniac who couldn't get enough BWC, but that would be completely unjustified. It's you who jumps to unfounded conclusions.

That is some of the most disturbing language Ive ever read on JUB. This thread took an extremely creepy turn. Must I remind you Sally was a minor during the period being discussed?

 

[unloadonme]

Must I remind you Sally was a minor during the period being discussed?

You don't need to remind me about anything. The Wikipedia entry for Jefferson states that his relationship with Sally Hemmings commenced in Paris when she was 16. They apparently went on to have six children together. If that's right, she was over the modern age of consent at the start of the relationship and well into her twenties by the time the sixth child was born.