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Justice Stevens retiring, who will Obama choose to replace him?

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There's nothing in the original text that makes any act between consenting adults illegal. In fact there's something in the text that makes such acts always legal: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Since the original text enshrined the right to own slaves, it denied to slaves the right to engage in acts with consenting adults. Indeed, it prevented white employers from employing escaped slaves and required them to return escaped slaves to their owners.
 
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In Bush v. Gore, the Supreme court decided 7-2 that the recounting scheme the Florida Supreme Court put together violated the Equal Protection clause of the Federal Constitution. There was no doubt in the minds of seven of the nine justices that the Florida supreme court had violated the law by allowing unequal counting methods to occur in each county in question. There was no judicial activism there.

Where they differed was the remedy for the situation, and whether the date of December 12th (established by the Florida legislature) should be held firm, thus disallowing any further recount. THAT was the issue that most criticize, not the main part of the judgement.

If there was any judicial activism, it occurred in Florida before it even reached the US Supreme Court.

They did more than disagree with the remedy. The law the Supreme Court relied on gave exclusive authority to the states to determine their electors, calling the determination by the states conclusive. Federal courts only have jurisdiction to determine if something violates the constitution or whatever other jurisdiction Congress gives to them. Congress can eliminate every federal court except the Supreme Court, and deny the Supreme Court the jurisdiction to decide any case except one that claims that the Constitution has been violated. The Court may have had the jurisdiction to strike down the determination of the Florida Supreme Court as unconstitutional, but it did not have the jurisdiction to substitute its determination for that of the state court. Breyer was correct in remanding the case to the Florida Supreme Court.
 
They did more than disagree with the remedy. The law the Supreme Court relied on gave exclusive authority to the states to determine their electors, calling the determination by the states conclusive. Federal courts only have jurisdiction to determine if something violates the constitution or whatever other jurisdiction Congress gives to them. Congress can eliminate every federal court except the Supreme Court, and deny the Supreme Court the jurisdiction to decide any case except one that claims that the Constitution has been violated. The Court may have had the jurisdiction to strike down the determination of the Florida Supreme Court as unconstitutional, but it did not have the jurisdiction to substitute its determination for that of the state court. Breyer was correct in remanding the case to the Florida Supreme Court.

That's a fundamental disagreement that is not worth arguing over because it will be a waste of time for everybody. The 5 justices that wrote in the majority opinion cited Florida's own laws as the reason for their decision, and that the Florida supreme court did not have the authority to reset the date by which the election was to be decided. They made it very clear that the court was deferring to the state law already on the books.

But that still doesn't change the fact that the entire basis of Gore's case (and the actions of the Florida Supreme Court) were found to be unconstitutional by seven of the nine justices.
 
That's a fundamental disagreement that is not worth arguing over because it will be a waste of time for everybody. The 5 justices that wrote in the majority opinion cited Florida's own laws as the reason for their decision, and that the Florida supreme court did not have the authority to reset the date by which the election was to be decided. They made it very clear that the court was deferring to the state law already on the books.

But that still doesn't change the fact that the entire basis of Gore's case (and the actions of the Florida Supreme Court) were found to be unconstitutional by seven of the nine justices.

The problem is that the Supreme Court inferred what the Florida legislation intended, they did not interpret clear language in the statute because nothing in Florida law says what the Supreme Court claimed. Instead, the Supreme Court legislated from the bench. What they said was that, since the Florida Supreme Court said that the Florida legislature said the state should fully participate in the federal election process, it had to take advantage of the safe-harbor provisions of federal statute, whereby Congress could not challenge the electoral votes of a state if they were in by a certain date. Of course, neither the Fla. Supreme Court or legislature said any such thing. There was no legal reason why the Supreme Court could not have remanded to the Florida Supreme Court to order a recount that was constitutionally permissible. The Court simply wanted to ensure that George Bush be installed as president. They legislated from the bench.

This discussion is about strict constructionism and whether the conservatives on the Supreme Court are in fact, as they claim, strict constructionists. Whether the Florida Supreme Court was right or wrong doesn't affect that discussion.
 
The problem is that the Supreme Court inferred what the Florida legislation intended, they did not interpret clear language in the statute because nothing in Florida law says what the Supreme Court claimed. Instead, the Supreme Court legislated from the bench. What they said was that, since the Florida Supreme Court said that the Florida legislature said the state should fully participate in the federal election process, it had to take advantage of the safe-harbor provisions of federal statute, whereby Congress could not challenge the electoral votes of a state if they were in by a certain date. Of course, neither the Fla. Supreme Court or legislature said any such thing. There was no legal reason why the Supreme Court could not have remanded to the Florida Supreme Court to order a recount that was constitutionally permissible. The Court simply wanted to ensure that George Bush be installed as president. They legislated from the bench.

That's your opinion, nothing more. The Florida legislature set a hard date for the election results to be certified (December 12th), which is the date that the US Supreme Court affirmed. Florida law makes it clear that ONLY the legislature can do such a thing, while the Florida Supreme court decided that they could do whatever they wanted. The Supreme court was reaffirming what the Florida legislature had already passed into law, and overturning the Florida Supreme court's decision to ignore that date.
 
Is Justice Thomas correct in denying a substantive component in the the due process clauses? Was it intended by the framers of the Fifth or Fourteenth Amendments?

Can the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment legitimately be used to apply protections from the Bill of Rights to the states? Could the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment foreseen this?

Is there an equal protection component in the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment such that Fourteenth Amendment equal protection jurisprudence could be applied to federal law?

What would a strict constructionist say? Would any of you agree with him?

Oh! And I'll take a pragmatist over a strict constructionist any day!
 
Kathleen Sullivan, constitutional law professor from Stanford has been on many short lists, but it appears that Obama will appoint her to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco instead.

P.S. She's a 50 something out lesbian.

And has argued before SCOTUS as well. She'd be an interesting option. My concern is that there are areas where her positions are just unknown.


Since the original text enshrined the right to own slaves, it denied to slaves the right to engage in acts with consenting adults. Indeed, it prevented white employers from employing escaped slaves and required them to return escaped slaves to their owners.

And we fought a war over that contradiction. Do you really expect a Supreme Court justice to argue from the precedent of slavery? especially since that mistake got corrected?
 
Is Justice Thomas correct in denying a substantive component in the the due process clauses? Was it intended by the framers of the Fifth or Fourteenth Amendments?

I'm not even sure what the question means....

Can the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment legitimately be used to apply protections from the Bill of Rights to the states? Could the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment foreseen this?

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall .... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Yes, because of the definition which heads the section. Looking at the arguments in favor of the amendment at the time, one of the big points was to stop states from denying the recently freed slaves the exercise of their individual right to keep and bear arms. That argument alone shows that the intent was that any right guaranteed/protected by the Constitution must be acknowledged and honored by the states.

Is there an equal protection component in the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment such that Fourteenth Amendment equal protection jurisprudence could be applied to federal law?

Whoa... I think I'm gonna need to be more awake to handle that one! :help:

Oh! And I'll take a pragmatist over a strict constructionist any day!

So you think the Constitution really means whatever current social trends find convenient?
 
I'm not even sure what the question means....

Is there such a thing as substantive due process, or is due process purely procedural as Justice Thomas believes? If there is no substantive due process, then life, liberty, and property may be taken away as long as the procedure is correctly followed. There would be no need to determine how important the liberty is. There would no need to justify the deprivation.

Substantive due process was recognized fairly soon after the Slaughterhouse Cases (1870). It was used to protect only economic freedom until the 1930s when incorporation of various provisions from the Bill of Rights into the concept of due process began. At that time, the incorporation of the entire Bill of Rights was expressly rejected, and even today there are a few provisions that have been held not to be included in the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Thus, Justice Thomas holds a very ideosyncratic view of the due process clauses, completely disregarding stare decisis. So, is his view a proper example of strict constructionism?

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall .... deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Yes, because of the definition which heads the section. Looking at the arguments in favor of the amendment at the time, one of the big points was to stop states from denying the recently freed slaves the exercise of their individual right to keep and bear arms. That argument alone shows that the intent was that any right guaranteed/protected by the Constitution must be acknowledged and honored by the states.

I'd like to see something from the legislative history supporting your claim about the incorporation of the right to bear arms. Thus far, the Supreme Court has not held that the right to bear arms is incorporated to the states under the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

I'll let you come back to whether the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment contains an equal protection component such that Fourteenth Amendment equal protection jurisprudence may properly be applied to the federal government.

So you think the Constitution really means whatever current social trends find convenient?

I've been very clear about my philosophy of language in other threads. Meaning shifts over time. Whole discursive fields break apart and regroup into new discursive fields. This observation is particularly important when sudying canonical texts such as the United States Constitution. Common law contains examples of such disjunctures. Although appeal to legislative history is often used to try to divine and apply the intent of the legislature to new situations, the new situations require what may properly be called judicial law-making, "legislating from the bench." This is a principle of common law which Article III requires the judiciary to utilize. (Thus I embrace neither Justice Scalia's intentionalism nor Justice Thomas's textualism.)
 
Is there such a thing as substantive due process, or is due process purely procedural as Justice Thomas believes? If there is no substantive due process, then life, liberty, and property may be taken away as long as the procedure is correctly followed. There would be no need to determine how important the liberty is. There would no need to justify the deprivation.

Thomas' view makes a circus of liberty; it is a statist position, an autocratic view such as even Hamilton might have rejected. If it was the intent of the Framers, then they never would have supported the Founding Fathers in the bid for independence -- after all, King and Parliament followed all the forms of due process.

Substantive due process was recognized fairly soon after the Slaughterhouse Cases (1870). It was used to protect only economic freedom until the 1930s when incorporation of various provisions from the Bill of Rights into the concept of due process began. At that time, the incorporation of the entire Bill of Rights was expressly rejected, and even today there are a few provisions that have been held not to be included in the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Rejecting incorporation of the entire BoR was moronic. Just because the set was listed as ten items does not mean it wasn't meant as a whole. Common sense says take the whole thing or leave the whole thing -- and the Fourteenth is essence says to take the whole thing.

Thus, Justice Thomas holds a very ideosyncratic view of the due process clauses, completely disregarding stare decisis. So, is his view a proper example of strict constructionism?

No, his view is an example of being unable to read.

I'd like to see something from the legislative history supporting your claim about the incorporation of the right to bear arms. Thus far, the Supreme Court has not held that the right to bear arms is incorporated to the states under the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Just look at the debates. Stopping the southern states from disarming blacks was a big point advanced as a reason for passing the Fourteenth.

I'll let you come back to whether the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment contains an equal protection component such that Fourteenth Amendment equal protection jurisprudence may properly be applied to the federal government.

Of course it does. "Any person" means take a person at random, and this is how he has to be treated. Thus the concept of equal protection is inherent to the wording.

I've been very clear about my philosophy of language in other threads. Meaning shifts over time. Whole discursive fields break apart and regroup into new discursive fields. This observation is particularly important when sudying canonical texts such as the United States Constitution. Common law contains examples of such disjunctures. Although appeal to legislative history is often used to try to divine and apply the intent of the legislature to new situations, the new situations require what may properly be called judicial law-making, "legislating from the bench." This is a principle of common law which Article III requires the judiciary to utilize. (Thus I embrace neither Justice Scalia's intentionalism nor Justice Thomas's textualism.)

The text means what the Framers intended it to mean. If that isn't clear from what they themselves said, it has to be inferred from the debates surrounding the ratification. If the meanings of the words aren't clear, they have to be taken from the use common at the time.

A rejection of this is found in a lot of Second Amendment treatment. In terms of the language at the time, the Second was the strongest of all the Bill of Rights, for "infringe" meant to not even touch the non-essential parts pertaining to the matter, while "shall make no law" means don't touch the matter itself; further, "shall not be infringed" is universal language, not merely meaning by Congress, but by anyone at all -- state, county, municipality, church, corporation, association, etc. That's been horribly watered down.

That's not Scalia's "intentionalism", BTW -- his view is that he can (where it pleases him) read the personal morals of the Framers into the text. That's as bad as reading in today's meaning of words: what is of concern is the text and what they said it means, not any secret motives or opinions or anything else. Scalia is engaging in a sort of "constitutional gnosticism", where those "in the know" apply secret teaching to the text. That's a heresy in any realm where meaning is to be conveyed objectively.

This is why I hold that the Constitution absolutely has to be read in light of the Declaration: the great value of the Declaration is individual liberty, and that has to be the guiding principle for reading the Constitution -- whatever reading maximizes individual liberty is the correct one.
 
He should pick someone who WILL create controversy, because liberals like myself are ready and eager for that fight.

He should pick someone who will challenge everything this court stands for.

His choice should be so bold that it will once in for all silence his critics and swear the justice in on his birth certificate.

That would really piss the tea-partiers off, which would provoke a response.



The tricky thing is getting republicans to take the bait.

I am hoping they do!

Because once the tea-partiers show their TRUE colors of being willfully ignorant and proud of it, the other 90% of america will see what lunatics they are and vote for democrats AGAIN.
 
That's your opinion, nothing more. The Florida legislature set a hard date for the election results to be certified (December 12th), which is the date that the US Supreme Court affirmed. Florida law makes it clear that ONLY the legislature can do such a thing, while the Florida Supreme court decided that they could do whatever they wanted. The Supreme court was reaffirming what the Florida legislature had already passed into law, and overturning the Florida Supreme court's decision to ignore that date.

The Florida legislature did not set a hard date for the election results, where do you get that from? It seems to me if the legislature had done so, the Supreme Court would have cited to the relevant statute because they would have looked a lot less foolish. They didn't and none of the cases that I saw cited to any such law. You're just making up facts.
 
Here is the Florida Statute, compliments of a few minutes of research online.

102.112 Deadline for submission of county returns to the Department of State; penalties.

(1) The county canvassing board or a majority thereof shall file the county returns for the election of a federal or state officer with the Department of State immediately after certification of the election results. Returns must be filed by 5 p.m. on the 7th day following the first primary and general election and by 3 p.m. on the 3rd day following the second primary. If the returns are not received by the department by the time specified, such returns may be ignored and the results on file at that time may be certified by the department.

---

As it pertains to the recount, multiple media companies, including CNN, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Associate Press, the LA Times and others sponsored a comprehensive review of the ballots. It was concluded that, had Gore had the recounts he desire, Bush still would have won. The results of this study were published during the week of November 12, 2001.

That statute has nothing to do with what we are talking about. That statute concerns when the counties file their returns with the state, not when the state electors are chosen and submitted to Congress.

Gore would have lost had there been a limited recount, as he wanted. A full statewide recount, of the kind that would have been constitutionally permissible, would have favored Gore. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12623-2001Nov11.html
 
He should pick someone who WILL create controversy, because liberals like myself are ready and eager for that fight.

He should pick someone who will challenge everything this court stands for.

His choice should be so bold that it will once in for all silence his critics and swear the justice in on his birth certificate.

That would really piss the tea-partiers off, which would provoke a response.



The tricky thing is getting republicans to take the bait.

I am hoping they do!

Because once the tea-partiers show their TRUE colors of being willfully ignorant and proud of it, the other 90% of america will see what lunatics they are and vote for democrats AGAIN.

The last thing I want is another Borked nomination. Provoking a response is not governing.

The tea-partiers are a leaderless and diffuse movement with no clear agenda. They are politically irrelevant.
 
He should pick someone who WILL create controversy, because liberals like myself are ready and eager for that fight.

He should pick someone who will challenge everything this court stands for.

His choice should be so bold that it will once in for all silence his critics and swear the justice in on his birth certificate.

That would really piss the tea-partiers off, which would provoke a response.



The tricky thing is getting republicans to take the bait.

I am hoping they do!

Because once the tea-partiers show their TRUE colors of being willfully ignorant and proud of it, the other 90% of america will see what lunatics they are and vote for democrats AGAIN.

No -- that's childish and counterproductive.

If Obama wants to provoke a response, it should be one that isn't just meant to piss people off -- the ideal nominee would be this:

  • male
  • Asian
  • late 40s
  • gay
  • married during that brief bit of sunshine in California
  • stands with Patrick Henry, that the point of the Second Amendment is that every person should be armed -- and not only has a concealed handgun license, but carries regularly

The Republicans would whine (quietly) about the Asian part, holler that he's too young, scream bloody murder that he's gay, throw fits and near-riots over the marriage...

and stop dead in their tracks, because getting a real supporter of the Second Amendment on the Court would be a dream come true.

For the GOP, it would be a lose-lose situation: no matter what they did, they would piss off a huge chunk of their base!
 
That statute has nothing to do with what we are talking about. That statute concerns when the counties file their returns with the state, not when the state electors are chosen and submitted to Congress.

Gore would have lost had there been a limited recount, as he wanted. A full statewide recount, of the kind that would have been constitutionally permissible, would have favored Gore. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12623-2001Nov11.html

It has everything to do with the matter: when the counties have to submit their tallies is the cutoff date.
 
The last thing I want is another Borked nomination. Provoking a response is not governing.

The tea-partiers are a leaderless and diffuse movement with no clear agenda. They are politically irrelevant.


Obama will never ever pick anyone as qualified as Bork. The tea parties are not irrelevant and if they are so then why are the Democrats planning to infiltrate the movement and stir up shit. The tea parties relevance will be felt this November. Right now as a result of that totally fucked up health care legislation hospitals that would have been built are being canceled, doctors that would have stayed in practice are getting out and the bulk of it hasn't even started yet. Right now fifty eight percent of the American people want the monstrosity to be repealed. If Obama dares to try to shove cap and trade and legalizing the criminals that have invaded our country illegally with citizenship, you ain't even seen the beginning of how hot it is going to get. Democrats are in a quandry right now, if they do what they want ie; vat taxes, cap and trade taxes and legalizing law breakers both those that have invaded the country and those that have been convicted of felonies they will lose both houses in November, even if they don't do any of that the super majority required to do it will be gone for a very long time. President Obama is the modern day Herbert Hoover and while many of us are not wild about the Republicans right now they aren't trying to totally destroy self reliance and self determination.

Americans are free to pursue happiness. Happiness and equality of birth are not rights. We are free to succeed or fail based on merit and circumstances and to a certain degree even luck. It is not the job of the government to take away from those that succeed through their own hard work and give it to the lazy, the unlucky and those whose parents didn't work hard to give them opportunities. We in this country are rapidly running away from accountability and responsibility and discipline. Not just the politicians but way too many individual citizens. Once those have been abandoned not just this country but any country will decay and self destruct. Unless things are turned around and soon we will decline and be left behind by the countries that value those things.

America is leaving behind the path to the American dream. It is a heart breaking reality. Once it is gone we may not be able to ever restore it. Both political parties and the corporate giants have exported our jobs over the last twenty years. They may not have realized what they were doing but they exported prosperity and freedom and opportunity with them. In countries less fortunate than ours people will work to feed their families at any opportunity. Most poor people in America have a roof over their head, clothes on their back, Climate controlled housing, microwave ovens, dvd players and a multitude of other things that fifty years ago would have been considered luxuries by hard working middle class families. You can't even compare what poor in America looks like to most of the rest of the world and a whole lot of Americans got those things on the dole not by working and saving.
 
That statute has nothing to do with what we are talking about. That statute concerns when the counties file their returns with the state, not when the state electors are chosen and submitted to Congress.

Gore would have lost had there been a limited recount, as he wanted. A full statewide recount, of the kind that would have been constitutionally permissible, would have favored Gore. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12623-2001Nov11.html

Here's a hint (since you don't seem to understand): The electors CAN'T be chosen if the returns aren't filed by the counties. The date was law; the supreme court reaffirmed that ONLY the legislature has the right to set the date the results must be sent to the state.
 
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