Kids and Math

[RenaissanceMan]

Whats the point of a lot of stuff you learn at school though?

I think the point of developing skills in subjects like mathematics and philosophy is to exercise your mind in reasoning, which become useful in a subtle way in life.

That's why the specifics of some particular method may not be extremely important. Lots of people will never NEED calculus or even factoring, but once you have "struggled" to learn these things, you have a better chance at everything else...assuming you have "learned" these things, not just memorized the procedure.

A lot of people get by on memorizing the steps involved in some mathematical method. Once memory of that goes away, of course you don't stand a chance at being able to do it again. If you truly understand, there are more chances that even if you do forget how to go about doing it, you can think a little and figure it out for yourself again.

In a quantum physics course I'm in right now, we had an assignment which had a number of "easy" questions which mostly involved math. A number of equations, and understanding of what to do with them lead you down the right path...and in the end, you could "get by" and finish the assignment, without ever realizing what the physics was about.

In math, this is similar...instead of developing reasoning/math skills, many people can develop mimic-the-textbook/teacher skills and get the "same result" on paper. In the mind, the "result" is very different.

 

[just_mills]

Since I left school 3 years ago, during the course of my College-time, and every job I have worked at, the only "skills" I have needed to use have been of the simplest form; adding, subtracting, division, multipliying etc..

90% of the Maths I feel there was no point learning.. I'd imagine 95% of the people I know (personally) would agree, aswell.
Fuck.. I know people who didnt even pass maths, and work in Banks, and lead a successful life.

I do not think Maths is a necessity, at all.
I think perhaps the people (here, and elsewhere) who believe it is, have a soft-spot for Maths, so enjoy it, or teach it etc..

To finish off my post Im just going to say I can see where Joe is coming from.

 

[seven_sins]

I teach at the junior/senior university level, and I have noticed a really big drop in the math skills of students over the years. Sometimes, I feel like I am teaching students right out of kindergarten.

 

[NameTaken]

Lol, at first I read the thread title as kids and meth! And I know mine is shit now. This will make me sound like a total douchebag but when I was in 5th grade I was in a bunch of interscholastic competitions that I did very well in for it and in 9th grade (when I was in school in America) my average for the school year in math was 99.5. Now it's been so lond since I've used it (and I'm sitll in school) that I can barel do basic multiplication/division and/or basic addition/subtraction anymoe. It's quite sad really.

 

[RenaissanceMan]

I do not think Maths is a necessity, at all.
I think perhaps the people (here, and elsewhere) who believe it is, have a soft-spot for Maths, so enjoy it, or teach it etc..

And *I* believe that people who claim math is useless do not enjoy/understand it.

Sure math is not necessary for all fields of work and doesn't apply to the lives of ALL people, but it's still important to have people be at a point where they CAN solve these kinds of problems if they have to (and we also have to keep the level high enough for the possibility to arise for developing future mathematicians/engineers/scientists).

Also, saying that only these kids should be taking math is a bit of a mistake: I used to hate math, then tolerated it, until I loved it and now I'm fully majoring in it (though I could easily be on my way to becoming an engineer or physicist who puts fancy technology in the public's hands). A general education is necessary, and a general education contains some math. Having math through highschool at some level I don't think is too much to ask. Not everything you learn to help you in life is immediately applicable or obviously helpful.

And as for adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing...I think that's part of where some people's math breaks down sadly.

 

[just_mills]

And *I* believe that people who claim math is useless do not enjoy/understand it. *

Sure math is not necessary for all fields of work and doesn't apply to the lives of ALL people, but it's still important to have people be at a point where they CAN solve these kinds of problems if they have to (and we also have to keep the level high enough for the possibility to arise for developing future mathematicians/engineers/scientists).

Also, saying that only these kids should be taking math is a bit of a mistake: I used to hate math, then tolerated it, until I loved it and now I'm fully majoring in it (though I could easily be on my way to becoming an engineer or physicist who puts fancy technology in the public's hands). A general education is necessary, and a general education contains some math. Having math through highschool at some level I don't think is too much to ask. Not everything you learn to help you in life is immediately applicable or obviously helpful.

And as for adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing...I think that's part of where some people's math breaks down sadly. **

*Knew someone would say that!!

Yeah, I fully appriciate what you're saying aswell. I know what you mean; Obviously certain areas of Maths need to be taught, but I just dont think everything we have been taught needs to be, to be able to get through life, or whatever, if you get me..

**That is pretty bad, yes. Thats something I think should be hammered down until each person is confident enough in themselves to know they are capable of it..

 

[thermodynamics]

I'm an engineering student, and I've had two semesters of calc, multivariable, differential equations and linear algebra. And I enjoyed it.

I really realize that not everyone needs to be fluent at math at the calculus level. But basic algebra IS a necessary thing, mainly so you can tackle the problems in physics & chemistry.

One little aspect that I think has been overlooked is the tieing of the theoretical concepts to real-world problems. The math department here actually has a calc sequence for engineering students. They have us work with MATLAB and Mathematica, applying the tools we learn in lecture to everyday problems...WITH computers. These problems take so much time to solve that industry doesn't pay anyone to do this stuff by hand. It's all done by computer. Some knowledge of the concepts is necessary, but you don't have to be fluent at it by hand.

I guess the recommendation I'd make is to make more extensive use of graphing devices...either graphing calculators or computer programs like MATLAB that can visually show you the significance of what you're doing.

One thing that mathematics does teach students is logic. If, then stuff. That's really what people need to take away from math.

 

[slobone]

In a quantum physics course I'm in right now, we had an assignment which had a number of "easy" questions which mostly involved math. A number of equations, and understanding of what to do with them lead you down the right path...and in the end, you could "get by" and finish the assignment, without ever realizing what the physics was about.

Which of course is exactly the wrong way to teach it!

A couple of years back, I decided to sit down and really learn basic physics, an appalling gap in my education. I found that when I had to work a problem, my first instinct was to search through the textbook for a likely looking formula, and then just "plug and chug." But I couldn't have told you what physical principle the problem illustrated.

 

[slobone]

Since I left school 3 years ago, during the course of my College-time, and every job I have worked at, the only "skills" I have needed to use have been of the simplest form; adding, subtracting, division, multipliying etc..

90% of the Maths I feel there was no point learning.. I'd imagine 95% of the people I know (personally) would agree, aswell.
Fuck.. I know people who didnt even pass maths, and work in Banks, and lead a successful life.

I do not think Maths is a necessity, at all.
I think perhaps the people (here, and elsewhere) who believe it is, have a soft-spot for Maths, so enjoy it, or teach it etc..

To finish off my post Im just going to say I can see where Joe is coming from.

It always puzzles me when people make this objection to math.

Did you learn history in school? Economics? Art? Music? Literature? Astronomy? Have you ever "used" any of them?

Maybe we should all just go to trade schools, and restrict our education to accounting, or woodworking, or better yet data entry or burger flipping. Lots of jobs don't require reading either, beyond what's on a computer screen. And who needs to learn how to write when we cell phones and instant messages?

 

[slobone]

I'm an engineering student, and I've had two semesters of calc, multivariable, differential equations and linear algebra. And I enjoyed it.

I really realize that not everyone needs to be fluent at math at the calculus level. But basic algebra IS a necessary thing, mainly so you can tackle the problems in physics & chemistry.

I'd like to see math & physics taught in the same course. You can't get very far in physics without calculus and other forms of "advanced" math, and a lot of things in math don't make any sense until you understand the physics that motivated them.

 

[just_mills]

Did you learn history in school? Art? Music? Literature? Have you ever "used" any of them?

Yes. I "use" those on a daily basis .

Economics? Astronomy?

Didnt take those subjects . Not really fond of those things, as I probaly wont need/want to "use" them.

Smart arse

 

[blackbeltninja]

I'd like to see math & physics taught in the same course. You can't get very far in physics without calculus and other forms of "advanced" math, and a lot of things in math don't make any sense until you understand the physics that motivated them.

I agree. The most annoying thing about Physics I was that so many of the proofs for the various aspects we were studying required Maths II or higher to understand them. Most of us did MAths I or, like me, half Maths I half Stats I and we got so lost trying to use the proofs.

I still have a letter from the HoD at Physics congratulating me on my great mark for Physics I and suggesting that change majors from biochem/microbiology to Physics. The downside was that to major in Physics requires a co-major in Maths, and my maths was just not ever going to cut it, so I politely declined to stay with Biology.

-d-

 

[dragonpearls333]

I think it depends on where you are. Here in the San Francisco area, the schools are extremely competitive. I took advanced Calculus in my junior year, physics in my sophomore year, and 5th year Spanish in my senior year. I was good at math, and I happened to like it. This isn't the case for everyone. One of my friends studies for hours, but he still can't understand a thing.

There were 3 types of students - people who cared about school and did well, people who wanted to do well and tried, but didn't do well, and people who didn't care about school and didn't do well. Most of the people fell into the third category, probably because their goals for the future did not involve math, history, science, or english. Or, in my words, they believe that their futures won't involve those subjects, when they are WRONG. How do you play basketball in college when you can't graduate? How can you write good lyrics to a song without proper English? What will happen if your dreams fall?

Actually, I take that back. Math isn't really needed if you're not going into math or science; I just love math too much, so I need to defend it.

 

[sherman]

I love numbers and math it was a major part of my career, but I have a few nieces and nephews that are in college that can't even balance a check book. When I was in high school they had a business math program which taught us how to do it, but I guess I'm aging myself. When it comes to spelling and English I'm the worlds worst.

 

[TylerKS]

I'm not going to lie. I'm 19 and pretty much have no math skills. I was on the honor roll all 4yrs of HS but only with the help of me paying my algebra teacher. I can't do math for the life of me. I hate it so much.