Legislatures Have Given Rights To Corporations [SPLIT]

[Benvolio]

Only individuals can have rights, because rights arise from self-ownership. Note that the Declaration of Independence does NOT say "All men, and corporations, are created equal", it says "all men" -- human beings.

So of course "Congress can't take them away", because there aren't any rights there to take away. What they have is legal privileges, and privileges are dependent on living up to the parameters established for those privileges.

If you want to go with the intent of the Constitution, then we'd have to restrict the existence of corporations to less than a human lifetime, and allow them to be formed to achieve and objective and once it was achieved, dissolve them. You can't cheat and decide that pieces of paper get rights, because that is not in the intent of the Constitution.

Congress and the state legislatures have given rights to corporations. Period.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

Congress and the state legislatures have given rights to corporations. Period.

Congress and State Legislatures can't give "RIGHTS."

Ben is once again betraying his authoritarianism. Which of course is fueled by his racism and paranoia.

If Ben actually knew anything about the FF's he'd have to admit that they'd recoil in horror at him and everything he has to say.

So sad.

 

[opinterph]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

Congress and the state legislatures have given rights to corporations. Period.

What are a couple examples of these rights conferred upon corporations by Congress and state legislatures?

 

[Benvolio]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

What are a couple examples of these rights conferred upon corporations by Congress and state legislatures?

This for example is Missouri Revised Statutes Sec. 371.130.1 71.130.

Each corporation organized under this chapter shall have power

(1) To sue and be sued, complain and defend, in its corporate name;

(2) To have perpetual succession, unless a limited period of duration is stated in its articles of incorporation;

(3) To adopt a corporate seal and to use it, or a facsimile thereof, as required by law;

(4) To borrow money and otherwise incur indebtedness for any of the purposes of the corporation; to issue its bonds, debentures, notes or other evidences of indebtedness, whether secured or unsecured, therefor; and to secure the same by mortgage, pledge, deed of trust or other lien on its property, franchises, rights and privileges of every kind and nature or any part thereof;

(5) To lend money to, and to guarantee, endorse, or act as surety on the bonds, notes, contracts or other obligations of, or otherwise assist financially any person, firm, corporation or association, and to establish and regulate the terms and conditions with respect to any such loans or financial assistance and the charges for interest and service connected therewith;

(6) To purchase, receive, hold, lease, or otherwise acquire, and to sell, convey, mortgage, lease, pledge, or otherwise dispose of, upon such terms and conditions as the board of directors may deem advisable, real and personal property, together with such rights and privileges as may be incidental and appurtenant thereto and the use thereof, including, but not restricted to, any real or personal property acquired by the corporation from time to time in the satisfaction of debts or enforcement of obligations;

(7) To acquire the goodwill, business, rights, real and personal property and other assets, or any part thereof, of such persons, firms, corporations, joint stock companies, associations or trusts as may be in furtherance of the corporate purposes provided herein, and to assume, undertake, guarantee or pay the obligations, debts and liabilities of any such person, firm, corporation, joint stock company, association or trust; to acquire improved or unimproved real estate for the purpose of constructing industrial plants or other business establishments thereon or for the purpose of disposing of such real estate to others for the construction of industrial plants or other business establishments, and, in furtherance of the corporate purposes provided herein, to acquire, construct or reconstruct, alter, repair, maintain, operate, sell, lease or otherwise dispose of industrial plants or business establishments;

(8) To acquire, subscribe for, own, hold, sell, assign, transfer, mortgage, pledge or otherwise dispose of the stock, shares, bonds, debentures, notes or other securities and evidences of interest in, or indebtedness of, any person, firm, corporation, joint stock company, association or trust, and, while the owner or holder thereof, to exercise all the rights, powers and privileges of ownership, including the right to vote thereon;

(9) To cooperate with and avail itself of the facilities of the division of commerce and industrial development and similar governmental agencies; and to cooperate with and assist, and otherwise encourage, local organizations in the several communities of the state, the purpose of which shall be the promotion, assistance and development of the business prosperity and economic welfare of such communities and of this state;

(10) To make any and all contracts necessary or convenient for the exercise of the powers granted by this chapter;

(11) To elect or appoint officers, agents and employees of the corporation and to define their duties and fix their compensation;

(12) To conduct its business within or without the state;

(13) To accept gifts or grants of money, service or property, real or personal;

(14) To do and perform any and all acts and things and to have and exercise any and all powers as may be necessary or appropriate to effect the purpose for which the corporation is organized.

(L. 1961 p. 157 § 11)

Source Link: http://www.moga.mo.gov/mostatutes/stathtml/37100001301.HTML

All state would have similar statutes. Federally Chartered Corporations are for more specific purposes, banks for instance, but would have similar broad powers/

Beyond that some Constitutional rights apply to corporations. Freedom of Speech and the press, due process of law, no public taking of property without just compensation. On the other hand, corporations can be criminally prosecuted for violations of law.

 

[opinterph]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

This for example is Missouri Revised Statutes Sec. 371.130.1 71.130.

All state would have similar statutes.

Do you think a business license also grants rights?

A business license empowers a proprietor to operate a business in a specific jurisdiction. Does that confer a right to the proprietor?

 

[Benvolio]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

Do you think a business license also grants rights?

A business license empowers a proprietor to operate a business in a specific jurisdiction. Does that confer a right to the proprietor?

Yes, certainly

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

Do you think a business license also grants rights?

A business license empowers a proprietor to operate a business in a specific jurisdiction. Does that confer a right to the proprietor?

Yes, certainly

That answer shows you have no comprehension of the Declaration of Independence or the United States Constitution.

Here are terms you might be able to follow: the Declaration indicates that rights come from the Creator. The Creator does not make governments or businesses, so they can neither have nor bestow rights.

The only thing that governments can bestow are privileges and/or benefits. They cannot even have rights, and they have no inherent authority; they have only what the citizens are willing to concede to them.

You claim to be "more libertarian" than anyone here, but hardly a week goes by that you fail to demonstrate anew that you have no idea what liberty is or where it comes from!

 

[Benvolio]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

That answer shows you have no comprehension of the Declaration of Independence or the United States Constitution.

Here are terms you might be able to follow: the Declaration indicates that rights come from the Creator. The Creator does not make governments or businesses, so they can neither have nor bestow rights.

The only thing that governments can bestow are privileges and/or benefits. They cannot even have rights, and they have no inherent authority; they have only what the citizens are willing to concede to them.

You claim to be "more libertarian" than anyone here, but hardly a week goes by that you fail to demonstrate anew that you have no idea what liberty is or where it comes from!

Wrong. Please read the Declaration of Independence. It ways that "certain" rights are endowed by the creator. Nothing suggests that no other rights can be conferred by government. Obviously you have not heard of the Bill of RIGHTS. All of those rights are conferred by the Constitution itself, and they can be altered and amended by the prescribed procedure.
Many other rights are conferred by law and by contract. Have "right of way", or a "right of first refusal"?

 

[Stardreamer]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

Wrong. Please read the Declaration of Independence. It ways that "certain" rights are endowed by the creator. Nothing suggests that no other rights can be conferred by government. Obviously you have not heard of the Bill of RIGHTS. All of those rights are conferred by the Constitution itself, and they can be altered and amended by the prescribed procedure.
Many other rights are conferred by law and by contract. Have "right of way", or a "right of first refusal"?

This explains much to me if you think the Bill of Rights confers rights instead of simply identifying specific already existing rights that the government should not infringe upon. I'm not sure who taught your Con Law class but you should demand your money back.

 

[Benvolio]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

This explains much to me if you think the Bill of Rights confers rights instead of simply identifying specific already existing rights that the government should not infringe upon. I'm not sure who taught your Con Law class but you should demand your money back.

Some rights existed under English law, others did not. The right to free exercise of religion without an established religion was a reaction to the establishment of the Church of England. There was no formal right to bear arms. There was no right not to quarter troops; hence the new right. Enforceable rights are conferred by law or contract. If they are not enforceble, they are not rights; they are only "should bes" and "it would be nice ifs".

 

[Stardreamer]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

Some rights existed under English law, others did not. The right to free exercise of religion without an established religion was a reaction to the establishment of the Church of England. There was no formal right to bear arms. There was no right not to quarter troops; hence the new right. Enforceable rights are conferred by law or contract. If they are not enforceble, they are not rights; they are only "should bes" and "it would be nice ifs".

If the government has to provide it is not a right, what the government gives it can take away. This does not stand in the face of the arguments that led to the inclusion of the ninth and tenth amendments, the idea that rights do not exist simply because the government says they do.

 

[Benvolio]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

If the government has to provide it is not a right, what the government gives it can take away. This does not stand in the face of the arguments that led to the inclusion of the ninth and tenth amendments, the idea that rights do not exist simply because the government says they do.

The purpose was to avoid discrediting other legal rights under the common law and other state laws. You can argue that there are other rights, but if they are not legally enforceable they are only wishful thinking.

 

[kallipolis]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/feb/11/margaret-atwood-handmaids-tale-sales-trump

The accomplished author Margaret Atwood addresses "values" in Puritan, New England in her novel,The Handmaid's Tale. George Orwell's 1984 is also selling well with the added thought that the new fashion in Puritanism is a throwback to America's past where people knew their place in the pecking order.
I quote:

Orwell’s book features an authoritarian government that spies on its citizens and forces them into “doublethink”, or simultaneously accepting contradictory versions of the truth. Sales spiked two weeks ago after a senior White House official, Kellyanne Conway, used the term “alternative facts”, an expression some denounced as “Orwellian”.

 

[opinterph]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

@ Kulindahr

Do you recognize this?

It is a perversion of terms to say that a charter gives rights. It operates by a contrary effect — that of taking rights away. Rights are inherently in all the inhabitants; but charters, by annulling those rights, in the majority, leave the right, by exclusion, in the hands of a few.

 

[Benvolio]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

@ Kulindahr

Do you recognize this?

Not sure if you are asking me. I do not recognize it and do not agree. I am unaware of charters which take away rights.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

Congress and the state legislatures have given rights to corporations. Period.

That's the traditional authoritarian position. It goes right back to the Divine Right of Kings concept.

It is contrary to liberty.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

This for example is Missouri Revised Statutes Sec. 371.130.1 71.130.

All state would have similar statutes. Federally Chartered Corporations are for more specific purposes, banks for instance, but would have similar broad powers/

Thank you for once again providing a citation that proves you wrong. Nothing in there grants any rights.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

Wrong. Please read the Declaration of Independence. It ways that "certain" rights are endowed by the creator. Nothing suggests that no other rights can be conferred by government. Obviously you have not heard of the Bill of RIGHTS. All of those rights are conferred by the Constitution itself, and they can be altered and amended by the prescribed procedure.
Many other rights are conferred by law and by contract. Have "right of way", or a "right of first refusal"?

The Framers would happily watch you tarred and feathered for your insult to what they meant by the Bill of Rights.

Why? Because your position is 100% authoritarian, the opposite of freedom.

According to the Framers, the Constitution grants no rights because government cannot grant rights -- rights arise from the Creator, or they do not arise at all.

Someday maybe you'll figure it out. Then you can actually be an American, instead of a royalist masquerading as a patriot.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

Some rights existed under English law, others did not. The right to free exercise of religion without an established religion was a reaction to the establishment of the Church of England. There was no formal right to bear arms. There was no right not to quarter troops; hence the new right. Enforceable rights are conferred by law or contract. If they are not enforceble, they are not rights; they are only "should bes" and "it would be nice ifs".

"Enforceable" is something that comes about because "we the people" know we have rights, and confer upon the government some limited power to protect the rights we already have.

Your position is an open invitation to unlimited government, because it rests on the notion that government is some sort of divine entity from which its property, the people, can get rights. That is exactly opposite the whole point of the American Revolution.

Seriously, read something like Locke, and Paine, and even the Federalist Papers!

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: So homos for Trump....What do you think of your hero Now?

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/feb/11/margaret-atwood-handmaids-tale-sales-trump

The accomplished author Margaret Atwood addresses "values" in Puritan, New England in her novel,The Handmaid's Tale. George Orwell's 1984 is also selling well with the added thought that the new fashion in Puritanism is a throwback to America's past where people knew their place in the pecking order.
I quote:

The first lie told by a totalitarian government is the one Benvolio is putting forth here: that rights come from government. If rights come from government, we are -- as several Founding Fathers noted -- not citizens, but subjects... and if subjects, then property.