Lets just say it: The 1% took all our fucking money! Deflation looms.

[kallipolis]

It is these very working conditions that lure corporations to China, they know that they will have a voiceless, fearful, intimidated mass of workers to exploit.

Apple Inc. is a well publicised example...making huge profits.....

 

[kallipolis]

Peeonme: You can't see the forest for the trees.

Bankside is asking why an American deserves better compensation than his or her Chinese counterpart. Not why they won't be compensated the same. Why should, in a perfect world, the Chinese make less than the American if they have the same skill?

You're arguing that the American deserves more because of an accident of birth. Without earning it. Just because.

Kallipolis: you completely missed the point. Bankside is calling out peeonme's exceptionalism, one of the vilest American tendencies.

Bankside isn't talking about China. He's talking about the Chinese. And not America, but Americans. He's saying their is no reason why one should not be paid more than the other, or live at a different standard. It's not the Chinese's fault that they have an awful government.

I note your further editing....already addressed by me....

 

[mightbe]

Then I have to ask, to both of you, why the unfettered animosity towards the Chinese people themselves? What wrongs have they committed? Why are they automatically undeserving of a better quality of life? Why do they deserve a shitty life?

You both are quick to point out the atrocities of the Chinese government, yet you still place blame on the Chinese people themselves? It's not their government.

Why is an American automatically entitled to a better life? Why can't we hope the same for others? Is it too much to ask for hope, strive for fairness, and absolve the innocent?

Both of you are caught up in the present. Bankside and I are speaking in theoretical and idealistic terms. We both concede the major issues with the Chinese government, but that has nothing to do with the average Chinese person. We also concede that an American will live a quality of life far greater than a Chinese. But we're not talking about the what, or even the how. Why is an American automatically deserving of a good life and a Chinese isn't? Neither have done anything to earn their lot in life.

Neither of you (though this is more to peeonme) have addressed this.

 

[bankside]

We should not use China's human rights record, and working conditions in Chinese factories as a bench mark for labour rights in our own country.

Of course not. All the growth in the global economy over the last 20 years has been going into raising conditions in Chinese factories and bidding up the cost of labour there. The point is to let people live well in developing countries when they work just as hard or harder than those of us in prosperous established countries. That's been my point throughout this thread.

"Fuck the Chinese peasants as long as I have my unskilled highly paid job in Detroit" is not a dignified argument worth listening to.

 

[kallipolis]

Of course not. All the growth in the global economy over the last 20 years has been going into raising conditions in Chinese factories and bidding up the cost of labour there. The point is to let people live well in developing countries when they work just as hard or harder than those of us in prosperous established countries. That's been my point throughout this thread.

"Fuck the Chinese peasants as long as I have my unskilled highly paid job in Detroit" is not a dignified argument worth listening to.

Then we agree.....except that the Chinese government is responsible for the working conditions of its citizens working in Chinese factories....and has nothing to do with the superior working conditions of Americans working in a factory in the United States...

 

[peeonme]

To all involved in our "discussion",
First I am for free trade with free countries, in a country where labor is suppressed and abused it is not free trade, labor has no voice.
Therefor with the exception of a few, most Chinese workers are not upwardly mobile, I have read of them living in dormitories above the plants that they work in, http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/24/us-hon-hai-idUSBRE88N00L20120924
http://wn.com/china_workers_dormitory_in_Singapore

Other free nations have done well, Japan comes to mind, the key word being FREE.

As for the unskilled job in Detroit that you refer to, it is a jab at the union I guess, I don't defend unions, I do defend the right of an American to have a heritage in the land that he and his ancestors developed and fought for. Part of which is a decent economy, the American worker should not be drug down to the level of suppressed un-free workers in a communist land.

In regards to the job I retired from, it was skilled, but blue collar, I spent the last decade trying to explain math to guys who claimed to have gone to college.

So my attitude or position is not "fuck the Chinese peasant" it is fuck a regime that suppresses it's people and drags down the standard of living around the world.

 

[Kulindahr]

So my attitude or position is not "fuck the Chinese peasant" it is fuck a regime that suppresses it's people and drags down the standard of living around the world.

[Text: Removed]

Just FYI, Chinese workers are building their economy by doing exactly the same thing that American workers did to build their economy: enduring horrid working conditions in order to raise their standard of life to get a better future for their children. And they're doing for the world the same thing America did: producing goods at a low cost and exporting them across the globe. So as a matter of fact, they're raising the standard of living around the world, because they make things at a price others can afford.

If Americans were producing those things at the wages you seem to think are an America's birthright, they wouldn't get exported because no one would be able to afford to buy them -- including most of the workers who would be making them.

We should actually be proud of some of the American companies with factories overseas, because even though they pay little compared to what they'd have to pay Americans, they pay two or three times the going wage where they are, and provide better working conditions, thus forcing the rest of the economies where they are located to try to keep up. That has driven wages in other countries upward, to the point that jobs are starting to flow back to the US because it no longer saves a significant amount of money to have them overseas.

Personally, my only real complaint about the situation is that it should have been policy to encourage companies to put those factories, and thus those jobs, in countries in the Americas. If all the jobs we've sent to China and Korea and Indonesia, etc., had gone to Mexico and Guatemala and others south of the border, we'd have better relationships with our neighbors and far fewer of their citizens trying to sneak in here for work.

 

[mightbe]

America already went through what's happening in China now. We ran our course. Get over it. Other countries will pass around the hat from time to time. Our turn's over.

You can't bring it back. You can never bring anything back. Reality only moves in one direction and it's always moving in that direction.

Your argument epitomizes the feeling within Britain as the empire fell away. The past is gone, and while having the memories is nice, they are memories of an imagined past. All memories are like that. Don't get too caught up in them.

We've had our day in the sun. Now we can watch the sunset.

 

[bankside]

So my attitude or position is not "fuck the Chinese peasant" it is fuck a regime that suppresses it's people and drags down the standard of living around the world.

Fine, we'll put it your way, fuck the chinese government then.

Now we can just go back through the thread and make exactly all the same point about India. India is a democracy with free elections, and it is a country that does everything it can for poor people with the money it has to try to get them food and healthcare.

They're very poor. And they can weld.

What's your move?

 

[peeonme]

Fine, we'll put it your way, fuck the chinese government then.

Now we can just go back through the thread and make exactly all the same point about India. India is a democracy with free elections, and it is a country that does everything it can for poor people with the money it has to try to get them food and healthcare.

They're very poor. And they can weld.

What's your move?

Don't faint, but I have no problem with India. My complaint is not really with the Chinese government.
My complaint is with a government that waged war on communism, spent us into a debt that we will never paid off and then to appease
large corporations climbed into bed with a communist government.

I have no problem with fair, free trade agreements with free countries, I think that I have said that. If you read my posts you might recall that I thought that it was good for all Japan and S. Korea are in the car game, hell, they build them here now, that's fair, free trade.

I see China as a sponge, (the government) they soak up money and their own citizens see damn little back, they build cities that remain empty and are a military threat to the allies of the US, but the government of the USA has built them up, we borrow money
(made in America) from them to fight wars and feed our poor.

The corporations that defected to China will look to the US for help, for protection, that's what we do, in the mean time they pay little
in taxes, they make their product on the backs of oppressed workers and sell it to underemployed Americans.

I will change my opinion about this when I see free elections and more than one party in China.

 

[Kulindahr]

America already went through what's happening in China now. We ran our course. Get over it. Other countries will pass around the hat from time to time. Our turn's over.

You can't bring it back. You can never bring anything back. Reality only moves in one direction and it's always moving in that direction.

Your argument epitomizes the feeling within Britain as the empire fell away. The past is gone, and while having the memories is nice, they are memories of an imagined past. All memories are like that. Don't get too caught up in them.

We've had our day in the sun. Now we can watch the sunset.

Actually it's possible that we're headed for a future where everyone has their place in the sun together. Key to that, though, is breaking the backs of multinationals in terms of political power -- otherwise, we're likely to end up in a corporate feudalist dark age.

 

[Kulindahr]

. . . . to appease large corporations climbed into bed with a communist government.

I didn't know that was why Nixon went to China.

 

[Kulindahr]

I see China as a sponge, (the government) they soak up money and their own citizens see damn little back . . . .

Really?

Between 1981 and 2005, an estimated 600 million Chinese people moved out of poverty (US$1/day) and China’s poverty rate dropped from 85% to 15%.
[World Bank report; Wikipedia “Poverty in People's Republic of China” ]

 

[Kulindahr]

FWIW....

Gazing in your [STRIKE]mirror[/STRIKE] crystal ball gives wrong answers as to my motivations or philosophy. Just to clear it up, here's where I'm coming from:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness....

 

[peeonme]

FWIW....

Gazing in your [STRIKE]mirror[/STRIKE] crystal ball gives wrong answers as to my motivations or philosophy. Just to clear it up, here's where I'm coming from:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness....

And here is where I am at:


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


If people want life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, a Government should be established by the consent of the govern to secure these rights.

If a government does not insure that these rights are protected then the people should throw it off and establish a new government...

But wait, I know, I don't understand. End of discussion, you don't get it.

 

[opinterph]

Countries should be in the business of making a few things well, and trading them.

That captures the essence of core competencies.

The woman who lives next door works longer hours than I do and gets paid more probably than my guy and I put together. But she also has more leisure time than us. While we're mowing the lawn and vacuuming the carpet and walking the dog, she's reading a book while her landscapers rake leaves, her housekeeper straightens up the kitchen, and the other neighbours' kid walks her dogs for pocket money.

Perhaps it is simply an illustration of how the neighbor manages her resources. She focuses her effort on her own core competencies and manages the resulting capital in a way that outsources whatever functions might otherwise distract from her primary means of productivity.

If you want to know where US middle class prosperity went, it was not to India or China or Canada or Mexico. US middle-class wealth was fashioned into bombs …

The US government consumes (and thereby effectively removes) significant resources from its own economy that might otherwise lead to reduced prices and a higher standard of living for its citizens.

Why the fuck should a worker from the US do better than a worker from any other country who is just as good?

All things are relative.

 

[bankside]

The US government consumes (and thereby effectively removes) significant resources from its own economy that might otherwise lead to reduced prices and a higher standard of living for its citizens.

Two thoughts on that:
First; more particularly the US military than government in general.
Second; the government is like any economic actor in that it is trading too. In exchange for tax revenue it provides services. Because it owns the tax department, it is more susceptible to engage in monopoly pricing, but only somewhat, and that doesn't change the fact that it delivers value for money. It does not take wheelbarrows full of tax money and launch them into the centre of the sun; it turns those funds into goods and services. Government monopolies can even save money. If you thought dealing with an HMO was bureaucratic for your health care, imagine the administrative overhead if you had to work out the copay for walking down the sidewalk... "I'm sorry sir; you aren't covered for freeway driving - that will be an extra charge. Your proposed route is not in-network, so the service charge for your choice of road for your trip is shown on the next line of the invoice....and I see you stopped at a park at 3:37 pm...would you like to use points for that?" Governments can make things more efficient, lowering costs and raising standards of living too.

Even the military, to the degree that it provides necessary and economically rational defences against threats that would cause harm to people or property.

But this military in particular is fond of using that wealth to conduct very elaborate, costly and pointless exercises in militarization. It is essentially the equivalent of shooting cash into the sun.

All things are relative.

..and my point is the standard of relativity is the work done, not the nationality of the worker.

 

[opinterph]

… if we believe in a dynamic economy
the pie grows, there is plenty for all who take part, we don't take another's slice and cut it into smaller parts and give it to others.
That occurs when the powers that be believe in a static pie, there is only so much, it won't grow.

In a truly dynamic economy, newfound efficiencies and innovation effectively reduce the costs of production, which should also reduce the cost of goods and services available in the marketplace. Ergo~ In a healthy economy, prices should naturally decrease.

What I have a problem with is when I by a washing machine that has always been know to have been made in the US, then after a year it breaks down and the repair man lets me know that they started making them in China a year before I bought mine and that they aren't "as good".

Information is freely available to American consumers. It is not difficult to determine the origin of durable goods prior to their purchase.

… does a person by "accident of birth" deserve to inherit millions of dollars?

Excellent question.

 

[opinterph]

As for the homeless, a huge part of that issue is due to liberals who want everything tightly regulated, resulting in obscenely inflated housing prices.

Are you referring to building codes?

Personally, my only real complaint about the situation is that it should have been policy to encourage companies to put those factories, and thus those jobs, in countries in the Americas. If all the jobs we've sent to China and Korea and Indonesia, etc., had gone to Mexico and Guatemala and others south of the border, we'd have better relationships with our neighbors and far fewer of their citizens trying to sneak in here for work.

Doesn’t that somewhat negate the concept of free trade?

 

[peeonme]

In a truly dynamic economy, newfound efficiencies and innovation effectively reduce the costs of production, which should also reduce the cost of goods and services available in the marketplace. Ergo~ In a healthy economy, prices should naturally decrease.



Information is freely available to American consumers. It is not difficult to determine the origin of durable goods prior to their purchase.



Excellent question.

This has not been the case, we have unemployment, underemployment, stagnant wages along with rising prices. The money "saved" in
lowering the cost of manufacturing has gone into the pockets of corporations and The Chinese government, miles upon miles of empty cities while the workers live in dorms.

The washing machine episode happened early on in this "free trade" economy, I was not on my game, of course now it hardly matters, most things are made in China.
Soon after Chinese goods began to appear it was recognized that they were of inferior quality, disposable and at times dangerous.
In the work that I did their cutting tools, reamers, drill bits etc. were a joke, a sad joke. Their "precision" measuring instruments were horrible.
When Japan had started to produce the same things in the late 70's and early 80's some machinists grumbled about foreign goods, but
little could be said about inferior quality.

It seems bizarre and prejudicial that some have a problem with an American worker earning more than a Chinese worker just because he was "lucky" about where he was born, yet little is said if anything about a man being in a position to run the country or a corporation by virtue of his last name.
Was he not just lucky? Should he live better than a Chinese worker? If we take all of the worlds wealth and distribute it equally we will find a portion of the people will sit around and piss away the money until they are broke. Some will capitalize on them, so is the nature of man.
A wage should indeed be relative to where a person lives, why do we not reverse this and ask why the worker in China does not make more? Why go with lowering the American's wage to where the foreign worker is at?