Lets repleal Bush's Wars before Healthcare

[evanrick]

Healthcare cost: 940 Billion and Paid for, will reduce deficit

Iraq: 1-3 Trillion and unpaid for and counting
Afghanistan: 1-1.5 trillion and counting

total cost of wars estimated to cost over 4 trillion, at a rate of 4 billion per month

Why are republicans so eager to borrow money from the chinese and spend it on a pointless war, but when democrats want to reform healthcare all of a sudden republicans say its too expensive.

 

[Kulindahr]

It's too expensive because someone got us so far in the hole, with military operations and [STRIKE]gifts to[/STRIKE] bailouts of wealthy corporations.

And if you believe that the recent medical care legislation is going to save money... can I interest you in some real estate west of Miami?

 

[Ambrocious]

The health care bill is a butt load of taxes that is made to further bankrupt us...Kulindahr, you are correct about the no free lunch. It's just me and the way I am that wishes that there was a free lunch (truly good health care) but sadly we are not ran by "good" leaders.

 

[Seasoned]

But you are ignoring the cost of regime change in Iraq. Health care is not ok the way it has been. It's now changed. If there had been an honest discussion rather than grandstanding we might have arrived at a better place.

Taxes pay for expenses that none of us agree on. That's why we have elections. Do you wish to pay for health or do you wish to pay for regime change. BTW the regime change choice means paying for health care for vets and some dependents for life.

 

[Ambrocious]

I took some notes. Here is some of the taxes inside of the health care bill.

New Taxes 1.9 Trillion dollars.





9.154 Billion - Disclosing all payments over 600 dollars to anybody.
Total surveillance over all private business, the IRS Expanding by a large order of magnitude.
"By re-establishing reporting rules of deals over 600 dollars between individuals or businesses, compliance in terms of proper taxes on such deals would increase making far fewer losses in the tax system."




14.196 Billion: Permanent increase in unemployment payroll tax; separate tax. Everyone will pay more towards the unemployment tax which is state level and ran by the FEDS which is now part of the North American Union Reporting System.

What is the tax: A Proposal for the permanent extension of 0.2 increase from the original 6 percent unemployment insurance on the first 7 thousand payed to the employees annually.




14.413 Billion close tax loop holes for insurance companies and their products. (This is meant to shut down the smaller companies while leaving the big government appointed ones living large).

What is the tax: The reforms in the insurance code are broad but includes specific provisions meant to target the sale of life insurance contracts onto 3rd parties who do not pay the full taxable amount even though they received the payout.



18.965 Billion: Re-instates super fund taxes; certain taxes on the production and use of dangerous chemicals were illuminated after 1996. They were previously held in a fund for the purpose of paying for any damage of any dangerous chemical leak or spill, now that fund is to be renewed.





23.729 Billion: A state in gift tax loop holes closed (they always call any money you keep a loop hole...they call gun shows being open a loop hole).
How it works: Several relating to the State tax will be modified for consistency purposes to avoid loop holes and such things as valuation and misuse of trust. (This is spun to sound good since it's from the bill)




23.977 Billion: Carried profits tax on ordinary income: This is an issue primarily to do with private equity hedge funds and other investment funds which charge individual profits as business profits thus reducing the tax rates on many employees carried interests. This is to be changed so the carried interest profits.

There was a lot more but I need to type it all out...

 

[JB3]

Healthcare cost: 940 Billion and Paid for, will reduce deficit

Iraq: 1-3 Trillion and unpaid for and counting
Afghanistan: 1-1.5 trillion and counting

total cost of wars estimated to cost over 4 trillion, at a rate of 4 billion per month

Why are republicans so eager to borrow money from the chinese and spend it on a pointless war, but when democrats want to reform healthcare all of a sudden republicans say its too expensive.

Your point might make a little more sense if you actually used accurate numbers for the wars.

(and if you admitted that healthcare actually isn't paid for)

 

[Kulindahr]

But you are ignoring the cost of regime change in Iraq. Health care is not ok the way it has been. It's now changed. If there had been an honest discussion rather than grandstanding we might have arrived at a better place.

What do you expect? Grandstanding is what they do, it's what D.C. is about!

First on every Congresscritter's list of priorities is "Get Re-Elected".
Second is "Keep the other guy looking bad so he can't get elected."
Third is "Whatever you do, do it so it could be used an a campaign ad to get re-elected."
Fourth is "Whatever you do, if at all possible, get money from it to use to get re-elected."

Integral to each of those is putting on a show -- what we call grandstanding.

 

[evanrick]

Your point might make a little more sense if you actually used accurate numbers for the wars.

(and if you admitted that healthcare actually isn't paid for)

well im glad we agree that the wars are not paid for and neither was medicare part D.

the CBO has even said that the healthcare bill will reduce the deficit, so if you cant take their word then who can you?

why all this scrutiny when democrats are in power? where were all these fiscal conservatives when republicans gave tax cuts to the richest people on the planet?

mccain used to be a real conservative, now hes a big government panderer which contributed greatly to his defeat.

the american people now know republicans will talk the talk but only democrats can walk the walk. why do republicans bother playing this game anymore?

all of their lies have been proven false and they are only embarrassing themselves now.

 

[Kulindahr]

why all this scrutiny when democrats are in power? where were all these fiscal conservatives when republicans gave tax cuts to the richest people on the planet?

a. What else have they got to do now?

b. They were being told to shut up or the Democrats would take over Congress.

c. They hadn't met Ron Paul yet.

d. They were still blaming things on Clinton.

e. All of the above.


BTW, those Republicans also gave tax cuts to those on the bottom, and some of us greatly appreciated it!

Though we'd have been happier if he'd just raised the individual exemption to $25,000. Like, my tax cut made a truck payment for me; for some in town, it bought a new truck.

 

[JB3]

well im glad we agree that the wars are not paid for and neither was medicare part D.

the CBO has even said that the healthcare bill will reduce the deficit, so if you cant take their word then who can you?

Have you actually looked at their analysis? (or know anything about how the CBO scores things?) The CBO score is the best case scenario, if fines bring in revenue, if all of the taxes line up, etc. The likelihood of the situation actually matching what their score produced is about 50/50, because the CBO cannot foresee every possible outcome. They even admit as such. At best, the bill might reduce the deficit. (which, by the way, amounts to only $114 billion TOTAL over a 9 year period) You need to understand that what the CBO releases are estimates based on complex models and methodologies; they are all dependent on factors that mayor may not occur.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/113xx/doc11379/Manager'sAmendmenttoReconciliationProposal.pdf

 

[Zu-Mendel]

I want both the left and right wingers on this board to answer this question, why is the CBO only valid when their numbers are in alignment with your ideology?

 

[Kulindahr]

I want both the left and right wingers on this board to answer this question, why is the CBO only valid when their numbers are in alignment with your ideology?

Interesting point.

Personally, I always assume that the CBO is bending the figures fro whoever is in ascendance at the given moment. Being of neither left nor right, I thus don't trust them at all.

I do, however, trust them to be closer to the mark than those hired by proponents of bills.

 

[Kulindahr]

they just assess a bill as written <-- that is where the HCR bill was disingenuous

i could write a bill that would have a surplus after 6 years if i put in the bill 4yrs of benefits but 6yrs of taxes

True enough; they read with blinders. My take on the medical insurance bill -- to label it honestly -- is that they were happily saying "Yes, there's enough gas to get you to the border", without pointing out that once we reach the border, there's no gas station within ninety miles in any direction and we'll have enough gas left to go twenty-five miles.

 

[JB3]

True enough; they read with blinders. My take on the medical insurance bill -- to label it honestly -- is that they were happily saying "Yes, there's enough gas to get you to the border", without pointing out that once we reach the border, there's no gas station within ninety miles in any direction and we'll have enough gas left to go twenty-five miles.

Exactly. They analyze these things in a vacuum; they don't take into account every possibility with the federal budget when producing their analyses.