Lutherans prepare to debate gay clergy

[metta]

The nation's largest Lutheran denomination will consider lifting its ban on gay and lesbian clergy who are in lifelong, monogamous relationships as it gathers this month for a churchwide meeting.

More than 1,000 delegates will debate church policy Aug. 17-23 at the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's (ELCA) biennial General Assembly in Minneapolis.


FAITH & REASON: Therapists, pastors agree: Gay identity no block to spiritual growth


As at previous assemblies, the role of gays and lesbians in the 4.6 million-member church is expected to be among the most contentious issues on the agenda.

The question is not whether openly gay and lesbian clergy can be ordained. They already are — as long as they remain celibate. The question is whether they can have committed relationships and still be called to ELCA pulpits. Partnered gay clergy are technically prohibited, though some congregations break the rule without punishment.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-08-10-lutheran-gay_N.htm?csp=34

 

[RationalLunacy]

Why is his mouth shaped like that?

 

[irydion]

too much cock.

 

[CorporalAris]

Lutherans are one of the most pleasant form of Christianity I have come across.

 

[RationalLunacy]

Lutherans are one of the most pleasant form of Christianity I have come across.

It must be their Diet of Worms.

 

[bankside]

Lutherans are one of the most pleasant form of Christianity I have come across.

LOL. I agree, for what it's worth.


by the way:
[STRIKE]Lutherans prepare to debate gay clergy[/STRIKE]
Lutherans prepare to debate openly gay clergy

There! I fixed it.

 

[hotdog1846]

by the way:
[strike]Lutherans prepare to debate gay clergy[/strike]
Lutherans prepare to debate openly gay clergy

There! I fixed it.

How practical and down to earth. You must be Lutheran.

 

[bankside]

How practical and down to earth. You must be Lutheran.

Reminds me of a joke about the "troubles" in Ireland.

This guy is walking down the wrong street in Belfast when he is jumped by a knife-wielding paramilitary guy. Paramilitary guy says "Who goes there? Catholic, or Protestant?" and the guy says, "Well, I'm an atheist, actually." And then the other guy says "Sure, but are you a Catholic Atheist or a Protestant Atheist?"

Well, I would be happy as a Lutheran Atheist.

 

[wizardo]

I was one of the representatives for my congregation at the synod meeting last May. We decided by vote to let the National Synod Assembly decide the question by simple majority this time. This question has been brought up before but the Pro-SHS voters could not manage a 2/3 majority which is necessary to carry anything of this stature at large. Since this time it will only require a simple majority of votes it will most likely pass. Lutherans Concerned has invested a lot of time and energy into getting this Statement on Human Sexuality passed. Finally, the Synods have decided that if those who still oppose the measure wish to depart, let them.

 

[Yooper]

ELCA...not Missouri or Wisconsin Synod. HUGE difference.

I grew up in the ELCA church. It's famous for holding big huge meetings and debates where upon they agree to disagree, and everyone just sits around being passive-aggressive for a while.

The ELCA has a chance this will pass. ELCA is a combination of several fairly recent Synodical mergers, and the LCA and Augustana Synods were pretty liberal, even by Lutheran standards.

I had the fortune/misfortune to spend a significant part of my life in the LCMS (The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod). Gay (even closeted) clergy there is a LONG way off; they are still questioning the validity of Divorce.

I can say one really positive thing about the LCMS, though. Their Education system is EXcellent. I spent grades 1-7 at a fairly large LCMS school, and also Grade 10. Academically I was far, far ahead of my public school colleagues whenever I was not in the system. I probably should have found a way to finish High School there; my life would be far different. We had moved far into the Mountains of Colorado by then and the commute was over two hours one way and it killed me. But the teachers in the LCMS system (90% from Concordia) were fantastic, although underpaid. They teach because they truly know they are making a difference and they do.

 

[Yooper]

It must be their Diet of Worms.

Quoted for truth.

(Lutherans are famous for their 'I'm Not Worthy' attitude, yet they keep themselves entertained by surprising everyone in their Political choices. Look what they do in Minnesota!)

When I was in 10th Grade at a Lutheran High School, a required course was Comparative Religions, taught by the Campus Pastor. We studied them all including all the mainstream Christian religions, the more offbeat ones (yes, even the JW's), Eastern religions, the works. I would bet the class would have been at least a 200 level course at University.

Anyhow, we had just finished up comparing Lutheranism and the Roman Catholic Church (remember, Martin Luther was originally a Catholic Priest!) and being a typical 10th grader, I made the snide remark 'So, Pastor Bob, Lutheranism is Catholic Lite. All the Ceremony and half the Guilt, right?'

I thought Pastor Bob would pee his pants he was laughing so hard. He told me that it was the most creative and fairly accurate way to compare the differences in one line that he'd ever heard.

(I did, however, get stopped in the hall the next day by the Dean of Students who cautioned me to not speak out of turn so much in class...)

 

[hotdog1846]

I can say one really positive thing about the LCMS, though. Their Education system is EXcellent. I spent grades 1-7 at a fairly large LCMS school, and also Grade 10. Academically I was far, far ahead of my public school colleagues whenever I was not in the system. I probably should have found a way to finish High School there; my life would be far different. We had moved far into the Mountains of Colorado by then and the commute was over two hours one way and it killed me. But the teachers in the LCMS system (90% from Concordia) were fantastic, although underpaid. They teach because they truly know they are making a difference and they do.

Wow, I wish I'd had that experience. I went to a Christian high school that was most closely aligned with Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and Southern Baptists, although my parents were Lutheran and not at all wacky. I'm still unlearning the absurd things I learned at that ridiculous high school.

To clarify, the ELCA already allows openly gay clergy. There's a church in Denver that I sometimes go to with an openly gay man as its senior pastor. (Really nice guy, and nice people at that church. They're one of the organizations pushing the equality debate in the ELCA). It's up to individual congregations to decide who to hire as their pastors, but currently they can't ordain actively gay clergy or hire someone who's actively gay as a pastor.

And, actually, the little known fact is that a pastor can already conduct same-sex ceremonies that are the same as marriage in everything but the name, including holding it at the church. It's all up to the individual pastor and congregation.

Anyway, yeah, I think this stands a reasonable chance of passing. They tried to pass a statement allowing for same-sex ceremonies and calling actively gay clergy 16 years ago, but there was such a negative reaction they decided to slow down the process and study it. They found it's really a blue state / red state divide -- ELCA churches in the big cities with large gay populations don't have a problem with equality in religion, but ELCA churches in rural areas of the Deep South and Midwest have a huge problem with gay equality.

It'll be interesting to see what happens, anyway.

 

[scream4ever]

I was confirmed in a Lutheran church and my pastor was very anti-gay. The congregation was fairly conservative I'd say, though there were some pretty liberal people.

 

[metta]

They did it:

Lutherans Change Policy—Affirm Partnered Gay Ministers


http://glaadblog.org/2009/08/21/lutherans-change-policy—affirm-partnered-gay-ministers/

 

[SonOfSlobone]

Man, if all the priests, monks, ministers, and rabbis who were gay came out of the closet, it would all be over tomorrow...

 

[bankside]

Man, if all the priests, monks, ministers, and rabbis who were gay came out of the closet, it would all be over tomorrow...

A priest, a monk and a rabbi come out of the closet....




(rimshot)

 

[hotdog1846]

Wow! I guess they decided to stop agreeing to disagree.

This is a momentous occasion. It's a banner day and is the next step toward full inclusion!

 

[Yooper]

Before everyone dances on the ceiling, keep in mind that it passed with only 68% approval. That is less than 2% over a 2/3 supermajority that was needed for the earlier 'human sexuality' vote.

I don't know if this vote required a simple majority or a supermajority, though.

Then again, getting Lutherans to agree on ANYTHING by a 2/3 vote is pretty incredible.

 

[Alpha1851]

This is a momentous occasion. It's a banner day and is the next step toward full inclusion!|

QFT! I hope other religions will take note of this historic decision and will march towards the same path as well. I would like to see the Lutherans, Episcopalians, and other denominations apply some pressure to achieve this goal.

I'm curious about what sort impact, if any, these latest decisions will have on the rift btwn the gay community and religion.

 

[Yooper]

The change in policy is a good step, but keep in mind that the decision to hire any Pastor is left up to the individual congregations. So for a good number individual congregations, the situation won't change a thing. The committee that usually issues a call are the Church Elders, and they are usually the fuddy duddies of the congregation.

It also sets up a very interesting employment discrimination situation is states where discrimination based on sexual orientation is illegal (it isn't in many states, still).